Board Thread:General Wiki Discussion/@comment-36052213-20180802015552/@comment-5733573-20180803022321

ChaoZStrider wrote: Llanunall wrote: Jdeschene wrote:

ChaoZStrider wrote: Jdeschene wrote: ChaoZStrider wrote: Jdeschene wrote: HopelessNightOwl wrote: Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts. It's not about changing someone's opinion. That's a distraction from the issue. Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party. People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position. While I agree with you on both counts, I can't call it discrimination. We have Lokintas word against Helel's and in this thread the only screenshots shown by Lokintas show only what Helel said and not the full conversation. Perhaps Lokintas said something to upset and anger Helel and leaving that part out. If that is the case than it is purposefully making Helel out to be a worse person than he is. I won't call Helel transphobic or suggest he is discriminating without evidence including both sides of the story to make a full assessment. Dead-naming and misgendering someone is absolutely discrimination, regardless of the circumstances. Whether or not he was discriminated against first is unclear, but neither circumstance gives him the right to discriminate in return. Purposefully saying something to hurt someone in a heated argument where both people in question are saying heated things is not at all what I would call discrimination. I'd call that two people insulting each other in a way they know it will effect each other. For example I hate to be called my birthname but if someone were to do it while we were arguing I'd have no grounds to claim they were discriminating against me.

Simply put we do not know the circumstances of what was said because all we have been given is one side of the argument in those screenshots. Calling Helel transphobic without everything being in the light when it comes to what happened is just silly and poorly done. In those screenshots it shows Helel saying "Jimmy" it could have been Helel, while upset, responding to Lokintas, while also upset, using something that he knew at the time would upset him or even playing on the phrase "rustled your jimmies." We don't have the full context of the situation to make such weighty claims. I'd personally suggest we leave that well enough alone until we either get more information on what the whole discussion was or simply drop it entirely. Going around calling people racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, bigotted, or discriminatory without knowing the full situation is just a bad move. The question that needs to be asked is: was the dead-naming intentional? If the answer is yes, the rest of the context is irrelevant. There is no excuse for intentional dead-naming and this should not be tolerated. Given that he still has her being called "Jimmy" on his hate page shows that there is still some spite that has continued on past the argument, past the discord, and is now present on the wiki. I would call that intentional. The two of you are completely missing the point I had made and am trying to make so let me say this rather simply. Context matters. An argument with two people saying this out of spite and hurling insults is something entirely different from discrimination.

For example if Lokintas was calling Helel a filthy commie or a gopnik bastard than, based on what you are saying, Lokintas would be discriminating against Helel and be a racist. Incase you aren't aware and don't get that, Helel is slavic so calling him a filthy commie or a gopnik would be insulting him based on his heritage alone. Correct, and that would be ten million kinds of wrong and shouldn't be tolerated either, but it doesn't give him the right to discriminate in return. In that respect, no, context doesn't matter.