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  • Helel ben Shahaar
    Helel ben Shahaar closed this thread because:
    The people have spoken!
    01:19, August 14, 2018

    Hello everyone,

    I’m here today to propose the demotion of one of the admins of our community, Helel, for many different reasons, including misbehaving, immaturity, harassment and discrimination against users related to this wiki.

    Before stating the arguments, I would like to inform everyone that I’m not a troll or a hate account to attack Helel; I’ve been active or checking out this website for four years; I was best known as ScrewYouDinkleberg and I did plenty of volunteering here as a rollbacker and as the now defunct VCROC. Furthermore, this is not a thread to “demonize” Helel as a person, but rather as an admin who holds an important position in the community and who is inappropriately playing his role as an admin. And before voting, I suggest you that you read rule 6 of the Demotion Policy to be greatly aware of it.

    With all of that in mind, here are the arguments.

    • There are many evidences that Helel harasses users on this site, from newcomers to respected people of our community. You can see in this picture that a new user comes to the site and simply gives his opinion on a story. Helel is clearly trashing the new user just for the innocent comment they made, which is valid criticism and such mockery was far from appropriate.

    In this picture, you can see a certainly young user who does a pretty silly comment. The admin then takes advantage of her naiveness to mock her as an attempt to make her feel unwelcome, instead of educating her to not make such a big deal out of character’s gender or simply ignoring it. He then involuntarily causes a circle jerk with user users to harass the original commenter, and as the final attempt of jerkiness, Helel responds in a mean and sarcastic tone to Cleric who told the people involved to keep things civil. This shows how Helel’s behaviour contributes for our site to have a negative light online, making new users potentially turned off to contribute and possibly find future volunteers.

    • Helel does not only harass young or new users, but he also can harass respected members of our community. In Humbolt’s latest blog, at first, Helel downgrades the work of one of our best writers on the site by mocking him, calling him a “pack member”, undervaluing Matthew’s clever references in his story of good writers by calling them imprecise like a “headless Coyote” running on his book pages. After Matthew calling out Helel’s bullying, our admin proceeds to devalue him again, calling him an “underdoge.” This is clear evidence of Helel’s arrogance for making himself superior to one of our respected writers just because, and also naiveness because the fact he probably thinks that it’s okay to mock people that way as an admin on a website for everyone to see and get away with it is absurd. That shows that he’s too childish to play the role of an admin on our website.

    • It’s also notable that Helel misunderstands genuine concerns and criticism with hate. In this page, which I like to call it his Hate Wall, was based on Empy’s Salt Mines. However, Helel partially misses the point of Empy’s original concept, which is to put together real hate and troll comments, to instead put these kinds of comments, together with actual concerns and criticism. For example, one of the messages is of a confused user who is simply asking why his story was deleted and he doesn’t understand why. Instead of Helel explaining the reason to him, he simply puts the message on that wall, as if it was an attack, and eh mocks the user. Another example is of a user simply commenting on what he thinks of our warning system. Helel unnecessarily put that on his hate page just because of an inoffensive complaint, and he once again accuses the user of bad behaviour. These messages show how unwelcoming Helel can be to new users who come to this site.

    • And on top of that, after an event that nobody saw it coming on a chat server, I was ignored by Helel after I complained on his talk page, confused of what happened. Then, he erased my message from his main talk page, which is against the rules, and I got put on his hate wall; And there, he called me Jimmy. That may not sound a big deal stand alone, but to put that into context, I’m a transgender woman, and James is my dead name. He’s fully aware of my correct name and gender, as I told him along with many others several times what and who I am. Even after my persistence, he kept misgendering me as seen here. His stubbornness is a clear act of transphobia, and he uses this verbal violence to discriminate and devalue my existence even more than the usual. This behaviour shouldn’t be acceptable in a community that supposedly should welcome and not harass people of all types who come to a singular interest. This behaviour can possibly make users see the website in a negative light, by seeing a presence of a bigot in an important role as an admin.

    • Helel also has shown to have flawed communication skills regarding important decisions, such as deleting ChaoZ’s blog without the consent of other admins and crats. That blog shows really important information regarding the upcoming Creepypasta Convention in 2020. It exposes the shady things done by the people behind the convention, which are good to be aware of for those who wish to attend. Helel at first deleted the blog without anyone’s consent, censoring important information regarding the event, and even threatening Chao to be careful with what he exposes, although Chao did nothing wrong.

    • And finally, Helel has proven himself to be hostile against other writers who don’t agree with us. Not too long ago, Helel sent a link on a chat server to a YouTube video of Slimebeast exposing audio of one of our admins. He then tells people to leave comments in that video (likely bad ones, as his personality wouldn’t tell people to send positive ones) to erase Banning’s name in a “blacklist,” and he clearly emphasizes that the problem of the video is not the leaked footage, but Slimebeast. This shows how immature and vile Helel is towards people who disagree with us and are genuinely scared of what they could experience, although I myself doubt that Banning would attack someone in real life outside a warzone.

    In conclusion, it’s evident that it’s evident that Helel's actions on this wiki have shown that he is not ready to be an admin given his condescending and at times acerbic interactions with users, misunderstanding of criticism for aggression, and his handling of off-site matters like the Creepypasta convention video. He seems unaware that his actions and comments can hurt people and can ruin his image, and since he’s an admin, they can hurt the community as well, since he supposedly represents us. Helel has proven himself that he is too emotionally and mentally immature to handle admin rights for our community. Future potentially good contributors to our site can be turned off by his behaviour, and his behaviour hurts the site overall. Although he is one of the most active admins nowadays and he does the basic job of an admin to delete stories, warn and block users, he can’t properly handle other sides of being an admin. Demoting him would leave the website with one less admin, however, I personally find it better to have one less admin than keeping one hostile admin in the team.

    Thank you.

    Support Support -
    {{Support}}
    Neutral Neutral -
    {{Neutral}}
    Oppose Oppose -
    {{Oppose}}
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    • Support Support - from what you have posted in this thread very little of it shows the mood that you try to ascribe to it. In all, it seems like you have taken a few examples of, at best, questionable comments and made them out to be more mean and demeaning than they actually read.

      1. In the first image he is just adding a response to someone else's review. Was it a particularly good comment? No, not really. But at the same time this is in no way harassing the author of the original comment. Demeaning? Possibly. Harassing? You haven't made the case.

      2. His response in the first image is less harassing and more telling the truth. Most of the content on this site contains themes and details meant to unnerve you, make you feel uncomfortable, or otherwise. Furthermore, the rest of the comments in the thread are clearly aimed in response to Helel and not at the new user. Lastly, if Cleric had an issue with his response then I am sure that Cleric could have said or done something about it on his own. Case not made.

      3. In your third example he literally goes on to compliment the writer on his story and his ability to get it published. In this very example it is the author that seems like he could have taken offence to his comment, which was not demeaning and instead complimentary. Case not made.

      4. I can't comment on this one to any great extent because it seems that the behavior in question takes place on a platform external to the wiki. I am of the opinion that while it is wrong to refer to someone by a name they no longer feel comfortable with anymore this isn't necessarily a case for a demotion, rather some form of discipline.

      5. The blog was added back to the site and the information is still public. As an admin though, it is kind of his job to take care of things like that without consent. At this point the situation could have been, and indeed was, resolved within the administration which resulted in the blog being put back up. Deleting a blog is not in of itself a reason for demotion. Case not made.

      6. I am not convinced that there is anything malicious and hostile here. If anything it looks like he was just talking about slimebeast and the issue he may pose or has posed against the wiki. While I am not the one to get caught up in any sort of inter-site drama this is also a seemingly poor reason for demotion and, as with the last 4 point, you failed to make that case.


      After looking deeper into his off-site behavior I have changed my mind and I do not think that he is, in any way, a good face for the site or for the community. An admin should not be involved in a group that harasses prominent members nor should he ever step in and partake directly in harassment.

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    •  

      2. His response in the first image is less harassing and more telling the truth. Most of the content on this site contains themes and details meant to unnerve you, make you feel uncomfortable, or otherwise. Furthermore, the rest of the comments in the thread are clearly aimed in response to Helel and not at the new user. Lastly, if Cleric had an issue with his response then I am sure that Cleric could have said or done something about it on his own. Case not made.

      Cleric did do something. He told them to stop. He clearly saw misbehaving from Helel and others' part, and he went ahead and made them stop with the circlejerk.

      4. I can't comment on this one to any great extent because it seems that the behavior in question takes place on a platform external to the wiki. I am of the opinion that while it is wrong to refer to someone by a name they no longer feel comfortable with anymore this isn't necessarily a case for a demotion, rather some form of discipline.

      It's not something just outside the wiki. He purposely called me by my wrong name in his secondary page, available to the public. It's on the website for everyone to see.

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    • Solonor1987
      Solonor1987 removed this reply because:
      i amm not reAally good in this debate
      03:43, August 2, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Oppose Oppose -Jdeschene's terms; see Post#89

      If this is good, I'm going with that.

      I'm basically in support of people not fighting, but also the right thing happening.

      I don't think I'll drastically change my opinion anymore.

      For a short time, Squidmanescape supported the idea because he believed firmly in Empyrealinvective.

      I'm not going to fake it anymore. I like authority and big posts filled with evidence by people.

      I was neutral in the first place because of a petty reason (the Category:Holders thing where I got confused), and now I've chosen support solely because Empyrealinvective chose "Support" and Llanunall made a blog post.

      Call me Benedict Arnold and I will have to shamefully agree.

      Squidmanescape said "Oppose" before completely switching his vote.

      I see the problem now. He does a good job, but also puts legitimate criticism into a salt mine. He does all the duties of an admin, and does them well for the most part, but he also has strong opinions and taunts people.

      I still don't think outright taking away the man's deletion privileges is the best solution, though; he obviously does things in this site, and stopping him from deleting pages is only really going to trap this wiki in the same place it was when he bcame an admin.

      Honestly, I think this discussion is more of a warning than any redaction of his ability to delete stories. If people can look at him and say, "This guy is so bad at giving advice that we're going to force him to rely on ClericofMadness to delete things again," it shows how much people can be affected by an abrasive tone and a short-sighted view of negative feedback.

      Is there any way to stop users from commenting without banning them? I think that would be somewhat more useful than forcing someone who makes caustic remarks into a position where they can't delete pages, giving them more reason to remark caustically.

      (I'm not saying Helel will do that, just that stopping him from deleting pages might exacerbate the issue.)

      But who's betting I change my stance again in the morning?

      Squidmanescape had this reasoning at first.

      As you can see, even when writing a comment I make stupid implications.

      Anyways, I do think calling you "Jimmy" was a bad move, but more of a "having bad trans etiquette" than a "being a bad admin" thing.

      I mostly agree with everyone else. I'm sorry about his bad trans etiquette. Yeah, it should be better.

      Squidmanescape previously said "Neutral".

      I am almost definitely going to change this to "Oppose".

      Now, I don't think misgendering you is nice (but I rarely get into that scenario, so who am I to judge?).

      I'm sorry that Helel did bad things. However, I think he should stay on this wiki, partially because I think that of everyone and partially because I am also in charge of a wikia and I deal with people even more badly.

      I agree with Llanuel on Point 6. A lot of people think Slimebeast is mean. I think it's just a case of two people with similar tastes on opposite sides of that Mr. Kellum argument that I'm not neutral about.

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    • Squidmanescape wrote: I agree with Llanuel on Point 6. A lot of people think Slimebeast is mean. I think it's just a case of two people with similar tastes on opposite sides of that Mr. Kellum argument that I'm not neutral about.

      Not so fast, Slimebeast is completely justified in how they handle the takedown and pursuit of their content. Narrators don't get a free pass to do whatever they want with the content of this site and no one has the right to re-upload or host his content against his will.

      That said, I am not going to interject or act like additional drama between the parties is of any concern to me or his role as an admin of the site.

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    • Solonor1987 wrote: Sorry but the user was rude not her, his behavior offesive , sorry , but i don't see why this administrator should be fired. So, would you fired someone without real explaination, because if i was admin i would have want to heard the admin version.

      Solonor, je ne comprends pas si vous comprenez la question. S'il vous plait répondez a la question en francais? Je suis curieuse sur la réponse.

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    • Solonor1987
      Solonor1987 removed this reply because:
      i am not really good in debate sorry
      03:42, August 2, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Llanunall wrote:

      Squidmanescape wrote: I agree with Llanuel on Point 6. A lot of people think Slimebeast is mean. I think it's just a case of two people with similar tastes on opposite sides of that Mr. Kellum argument that I'm not neutral about.

      Not so fast, Slimebeast is completely justified in how they handle the takedown and pursuit of their content. Narrators don't get a free pass to do whatever they want with the content of this site and no one has the right to re-upload or host his content against his will.

      That said, I am not going to interject or act like additional drama between the parties is of any concern to me or his role as an admin of the site.

      I just realized that I completely skimmed over that part of the argument. Thank you for pointing out that what I said didn't make sense in context.

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    • Solonor1987 wrote: Explaination Cela veut dire  Explication Job  Bien Travail je crois  I believe it is how you will said

      Je voit pas du tout pourquoi le viré



      I wanted to say an administrator

      Merci. En ce moment je comprends la réponse.

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    • Oppose Oppose -

      You've brought up some questionable behavior on the Helel's part yes, and I would be lying if I didn't admit to finding his tone excessive on occasion, but in my opinion you have not presented a preponderance of evidence that he is unfit for adminship.

      Image 1: Not egregious enough to significantly impact my vote.

      Image 2: The comment in question was stupid and childish, and Helel did no more than inform the user of what he or she was in for with this wiki.

      Image 3: I've seen admins ribbing and chiding each other before using a tone that may appear hostile to those not aware of their relationship, but I think Helel believes he and Cleric have a certain rapport allowing him to use that tone jokingly. Until Cleric himself says such is not the case, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as far as that goes.

      Image 4: This seems like a pretty clear-cut case of Humboldt taking a joke the wrong way as well as not being able to handle criticism of his work. Helel called him "pack member" because, get it, Humboldt's wiki persona is a werewolf. Helel gave a mixture of praise and criticism, Humboldt focused exclusively on the criticism and got butthurt using the cliched "but other well known authors liked it so your opinion just isn't valid" comeback that is the well-known practice of an insecure author, as well as taking unnecessary offense at "packmember".

      Helel said part of his book seemed haphazardly written and said "congratulations, Packmember". What part of that is misconduct?

      Images 5 and 6: Dubious, but not worth demoting over.

      EDIT: Also, titling your talk page message "My Story Was Up to QS" is not "simply asking" about why it was deleted. And as for the other message, Helel did call it only "slightly salty."

      Image 7: The Discord is not supposed to be a successor to CPWC. It is considered a separate entity from the wiki and as of a few months ago Helel is the server owner. He can call you what he wants being that it is his server. If you disagree with it, either ask Cleric to ask Helel to give back ownership of the server or ask that everyone no longer hang out there. Furthermore, there's no rule stating that admins or anyone else are required to acknowledge your new gender identity.

      Image 8: Deleting that blog was definitely the biggest mistake Helel has made in a while. But keep in mind that he was convinced the leaked audio was illegal until I informed him otherwise, and once I, Icy, and a couple others voiced our concerns, he did restore it. And not only did he restore it, but he invited ChaoZ into Discord to discuss his grievances further, and ChaoZ appeared satisfied with the resolution.

      Images 9 and 10: Once again, it's his server, and as far as I know this wiki does not have a "no raiding" rule. He wanted to draw attention to a video he didn't like, and probably assumed others would want to voice their distaste against it as well. From my experience with Slimebeast he can take it. And by the way, I personally agree with Slimebeast on almost everything he has ever said about this wiki and the convention, and have always disagreed with Helel's opinions on him.

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    • DheerP10
      DheerP10 removed this reply because:
      IDK
      04:16, August 2, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Support Support - 

      I agree with you on this! 

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    • Sorry if i erased my answers , but i was not really good in debate. I really think that he should explain his version.

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    •  

      Image 7: The Discord is not supposed to be a successor to CPWC. It is considered a separate entity from the wiki and as of a few months ago, Helel is the server owner. He can call you what he wants because that it is his server. If you disagree with it, either ask Cleric to ask Helel to give back ownership of the server or ask that everyone no longer hang out there. Furthermore, there's no rule stating that admins or anyone else are required to acknowledge your new gender identity.

      So it's ok to discriminate people just because he "owns" the place? Although that may be a valid argument, I think that anyone with a brain who discovers that Helel discriminates people behind the scenes (or not; he misgendered me PUBLICLY) would want to be related to a community that accepts someone with that kind of mentality.

      And that server is not really his. It's not meant to replace the CPWC for now, but there were plans of doing that (and that can still happen), and I believe that that server was meant to gather some of the more relevant users of the community in one place. And openly discriminating someone just makes people around the user uncomfortable and not wanting to be related to that community. I don't think the CPW community doesn't want to present themselves with someone who behaves like that.

      Also, if some of the evidence comes outside the site, why is that relevant? I've never seen someone exposing another person based on everything that is published publicly. Taking the Creepypasta Con for example, would you think that all that important information that ChaoZ exposed is invalid because it was taken from outside the wiki? That logic makes no sense. Someone's behaviour outside the wiki greatly influences how they act anywhere else. A lot of shady things are done by people that you'd have no idea that they were shady if you just relied on a specific display of behaviour. That's why plenty of evidence coming from similar things to this thread comes from outside sources.

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    • Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

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    • Oppose Oppose -


      If you don't like the way he is, then don't interact with him. Instead of going on a massive rant, you could just drop it, leave the site, or have a conversation with the guy. An actual conversation, not a one-sided shout. This kind of extreme response leads me to believe that you have a personal vendetta against the guy, and I've never seen anything from him that would warrant this kind of response.

      All of that being said, I do not condone whatever he said to you to upset you this much. I recognize that gender and sexuality are not subjects to be taken lightly, especially considering recent events. I'm not an intolerant person, and I don't have any plans to change that. HOWEVER, I do have very good friends that are not as tolerant of other people as I am. They are my friends because they have similar interests, and generally their personality resonates with mine.

      So instead of trying to be enemies with the guy, why don't you talk to him. Figure out who he is as a person. From what I've seen above, he hasn't done anything to warrant a demotion, save for a deletion which was reverted and hurting your feelings. The antagonism needs to stop, from both sides, and the only way to make that happen is to talk and work things out. This attack against a guy that you don't particularly like is not the solution.

      And in the event that you can't work out your problems with him, you still have options. You can ignore him. You can stop visiting the site. I assume you are no longer involved with the discord chat, but that's your business and your choice to make. If you are really dedicated to the site, then I would suggest staying regardless of how you feel about him, and just disregard him as an admin that you don't like. Don't make it personal, because it gets ugly fast, and gives off the wrong impression.

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    • Solonor1987
      Solonor1987 removed this reply because:
      i am not really good
      05:37, August 2, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • TheWizardOfTheWoods wrote:
      Oppose Oppose -

      If you don't like the way he is, then don't interact with him. Instead of going on a massive rant, you could just drop it, leave the site, or have a conversation with the guy. An actual conversation, not a one-sided shout. This kind of extreme response leads me to believe that you have a personal vendetta against the guy, and I've never seen anything from him that would warrant this kind of response.

      All of that being said, I do not condone whatever he said to you to upset you this much. I recognize that gender and sexuality are not subjects to be taken lightly, especially considering recent events. I'm not an intolerant person, and I don't have any plans to change that. HOWEVER, I do have very good friends that are not as tolerant of other people as I am. They are my friends because they have similar interests, and generally their personality resonates with mine.

      So instead of trying to be enemies with the guy, why don't you talk to him. Figure out who he is as a person. From what I've seen above, he hasn't done anything to warrant a demotion, save for a deletion which was reverted and hurting your feelings. The antagonism needs to stop, from both sides, and the only way to make that happen is to talk and work things out. This attack against a guy that you don't particularly like is not the solution.

      And in the event that you can't work out your problems with him, you still have options. You can ignore him. You can stop visiting the site. I assume you are no longer involved with the discord chat, but that's your business and your choice to make. If you are really dedicated to the site, then I would suggest staying regardless of how you feel about him, and just disregard him as an admin that you don't like. Don't make it personal, because it gets ugly fast, and gives off the wrong impression.

      I tried talking to him way before I started making this thread. the third message I screenshotted from his hate wall was of me asking him why he did that to me. Although I was angry at him, I was open to him talking to me. But then he not only erased my message, which is against the rules, he put it on his wall. 

      And I got reports from common friends of ours that he seems to be avoiding talking about our convo at all. So I'm assuming that he's actively ignoring me for some reason, although I demanded an explanation to why he kicked me out, and it's been a while since I asked for an explanation. 

      Also, I made it very clear at the beginning of the thread that I was targeting him based on his actions and dialogues as an admin, not as a person. Maybe his online persona is that way, but the person behind the screen isn't, although I find it unlikely for that to be the case.

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    • His name is not the problem. He refered to her by her previous name, referred to as her dead name, from before she underwent the operation to become a woman. It's not a nice thing to do, especially if he knew about her feelings toward that name before hand, but it still isn't grounds for demotion. Hope this clarified things a bit, Solonor.

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    • Solonor1987 wrote: Oppose Oppose - Well you think he's rude and arrogant, well i think i made up my mind i totally oppose, because like i said he's just doing his job, he's not doing anything wrong.

      Like i said i think he should explain his version of the story, but i see that you don't like him, why is it because of his name, if yes well racism is completely wrong and totally against the rules,

      Soloner, respectfully, it appears that you don't really know what is going on. Racism was never mentioned in this conversation, and your limited English proficiency appears to be a barrier to you understanding this debate.

      Helel will have time to respond to the accusations, and if you are waiting for him to tell his side of the story then I don't quite get why you are casting a vote now.

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    • Let's hope he get respond to it, because  i really think something ain't right about this debate anyway.

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    • Solonor1987 wrote: Let's hope he get respond to it, because  i really think something ain't right about this debate anyway.

      Well, in any case, you need to either pick a position and stick with it or abstain from participating. I would advise that you not change your vote and explanation again unless and until you fully understand what everyone is saying. And remember, you can always vote "Neutral" if you are unsure.

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    • Lokintas,

      If reaching out to him hasn't worked, then I'm sorry you wasted the effort and he wasn't willing to reciprocate. With that being the case, assuming that you are still intending to be an active community member, then I suggest just leaving things as they are and enjoying everything esle that everyone else has to offer. It would really suck to lose a community member over this.

      I stand by my oppose vote, as I still don't see enough grounds to demote him, but that doesn't mean I like what he did or how he treated things. I'm sorry if he's unwilling to be civil, but that still leaves the entire website full of people that will be. Hopefully they make for better convesation companions.

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    • Previously Neutral sorry, but i think my vote will be Oppose Oppose - Sorry, but i don't what is the problem with him, because like i said earlier all he was doing was his job.

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    • Oppose Oppose -

      I read the charges. I have had some experiences with Helel ben Shahaar. A couple of the interactions have left me pissed, I admit. On the other hand, I don't want to do his job. It's thankless. No matter what you do, somebody is pissed at you. He is our JANITOR. You got to expect janitors to stink sometimes when scrubbing the toilets after all the trollpastas.

      I also separate "at the job site behavior" and "off work behavior." If he were an American, he would have the right of free speech. That includes the right to stick his head up his ass and be a total jerk when he is on his own time as long as what he is doing doesn't attack the site or the participants. If he is an asshole in his private expression offsite then keep away from him.

      I think Helel should be more polite. Hopefully, this will encourage him to hang back and think before posting snarky comments, offensive names or groundless accusations. That said, what he is accused of is crap a NORMAL level user can do. I don't see that he has abused his Admin authority and lowering him down to a common jerk like me wouldn't change things.

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    • Lokintas wrote:
      Hello everyone,

      I’m here today to propose the demotion of one of the admins of our community, Helel, for many different reasons, including misbehaving, immaturity, harassment and discrimination against users related to this wiki.

      Before stating the arguments, I would like to inform everyone that I’m not a troll or a hate account to attack Helel; I’ve been active or checking out this website for four years; I was best known as ScrewYouDinkleberg and I did plenty of volunteering here as a rollbacker and as the now defunct VCROC. Furthermore, this is not a thread to “demonize” Helel as a person, but rather as an admin who holds an important position in the community and who is inappropriately playing his role as an admin. And before voting, I suggest you that you read rule 6 of the Demotion Policy to be greatly aware of it.

      With all of that in mind, here are the arguments.

      • There are many evidences that Helel harasses users on this site, from newcomers to respected people of our community. You can see in this picture that a new user comes to the site and simply gives his opinion on a story. Helel is clearly trashing the new user just for the innocent comment they made, which is valid criticism and such mockery was far from appropriate.

      In this picture, you can see a certainly young user who does a pretty silly comment. The admin then takes advantage of her naiveness to mock her as an attempt to make her feel unwelcome, instead of educating her to not make such a big deal out of character’s gender or simply ignoring it. He then involuntarily causes a circle jerk with user users to harass the original commenter, and as the final attempt of jerkiness, Helel responds in a mean and sarcastic tone to Cleric who told the people involved to keep things civil. This shows how Helel’s behaviour contributes for our site to have a negative light online, making new users potentially turned off to contribute and possibly find future volunteers.

      • Helel does not only harass young or new users, but he also can harass respected members of our community. In Humbolt’s latest blog, at first, Helel downgrades the work of one of our best writers on the site by mocking him, calling him a “pack member”, undervaluing Matthew’s clever references in his story of good writers by calling them imprecise like a “headless Coyote” running on his book pages. After Matthew calling out Helel’s bullying, our admin proceeds to devalue him again, calling him an “underdoge.” This is clear evidence of Helel’s arrogance for making himself superior to one of our respected writers just because, and also naiveness because the fact he probably thinks that it’s okay to mock people that way as an admin on a website for everyone to see and get away with it is absurd. That shows that he’s too childish to play the role of an admin on our website.

      • It’s also notable that Helel misunderstands genuine concerns and criticism with hate. In this page, which I like to call it his Hate Wall, was based on Empy’s Salt Mines. However, Helel partially misses the point of Empy’s original concept, which is to put together real hate and troll comments, to instead put these kinds of comments, together with actual concerns and criticism. For example, one of the messages is of a confused user who is simply asking why his story was deleted and he doesn’t understand why. Instead of Helel explaining the reason to him, he simply puts the message on that wall, as if it was an attack, and eh mocks the user. Another example is of a user simply commenting on what he thinks of our warning system. Helel unnecessarily put that on his hate page just because of an inoffensive complaint, and he once again accuses the user of bad behaviour. These messages show how unwelcoming Helel can be to new users who come to this site.

      • And on top of that, after an event that nobody saw it coming on a chat server, I was ignored by Helel after I complained on his talk page, confused of what happened. Then, he erased my message from his main talk page, which is against the rules, and I got put on his hate wall; And there, he called me Jimmy. That may not sound a big deal stand alone, but to put that into context, I’m a transgender woman, and James is my dead name. He’s fully aware of my correct name and gender, as I told him along with many others several times what and who I am. Even after my persistence, he kept misgendering me as seen here. His stubbornness is a clear act of transphobia, and he uses this verbal violence to discriminate and devalue my existence even more than the usual. This behaviour shouldn’t be acceptable in a community that supposedly should welcome and not harass people of all types who come to a singular interest. This behaviour can possibly make users see the website in a negative light, by seeing a presence of a bigot in an important role as an admin.

      • Helel also has shown to have flawed communication skills regarding important decisions, such as deleting ChaoZ’s blog without the consent of other admins and crats. That blog shows really important information regarding the upcoming Creepypasta Convention in 2020. It exposes the shady things done by the people behind the convention, which are good to be aware of for those who wish to attend. Helel at first deleted the blog without anyone’s consent, censoring important information regarding the event, and even threatening Chao to be careful with what he exposes, although Chao did nothing wrong.

      • And finally, Helel has proven himself to be hostile against other writers who don’t agree with us. Not too long ago, Helel sent a link on a chat server to a YouTube video of Slimebeast exposing audio of one of our admins. He then tells people to leave comments in that video (likely bad ones, as his personality wouldn’t tell people to send positive ones) to erase Banning’s name in a “blacklist,” and he clearly emphasizes that the problem of the video is not the leaked footage, but Slimebeast. This shows how immature and vile Helel is towards people who disagree with us and are genuinely scared of what they could experience, although I myself doubt that Banning would attack someone in real life outside a warzone.

      In conclusion, it’s evident that it’s evident that Helel's actions on this wiki have shown that he is not ready to be an admin given his condescending and at times acerbic interactions with users, misunderstanding of criticism for aggression, and his handling of off-site matters like the Creepypasta convention video. He seems unaware that his actions and comments can hurt people and can ruin his image, and since he’s an admin, they can hurt the community as well, since he supposedly represents us. Helel has proven himself that he is too emotionally and mentally immature to handle admin rights for our community. Future potentially good contributors to our site can be turned off by his behaviour, and his behaviour hurts the site overall. Although he is one of the most active admins nowadays and he does the basic job of an admin to delete stories, warn and block users, he can’t properly handle other sides of being an admin. Demoting him would leave the website with one less admin, however, I personally find it better to have one less admin than keeping one hostile admin in the team.

      Thank you.

      Support Support -
      {{Support}}
      Neutral Neutral -
      {{Neutral}}
      Oppose Oppose -
      {{Oppose}}

      Support Support - I agree with this considering I only just posted my story and "boom" its gone before I could have some feedback on it. I actually reuploaded it to the TrollPasta wiki and made my own Wiki as a back up for my and my brother's stories (the wiki is called "Rebellion of the Pasta Writers") Get the rights straight, Helel, don't be the new JasiTheHyena (sorry if I spelt his username wrong and he's Sonic.exe's creator for those that don't know)

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    • While I feel like I'm generally on good terms with Helel, I have to be honest and say his first impression was not a good one.  Instead of educating new users who will naturally make mistakes, he tends to choose to threaten them.  He frequently tells people what not to do, and what will get them banned, but doesn't seem to provide advice or alternative choices.  Other moderators are really good at this without being condescending.  Helel is sadly not.  This, I believe, is a surefire way to turn new members away from this wiki.  I think the wiki would be a more welcoming place if he didn't have the ability to do this.

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    • Support Support - I agree with this considering I only just posted my story and "boom" its gone before I could have some feedback on it. I actually reuploaded it to the TrollPasta wiki and made my own Wiki as a back up for my and my brother's stories (the wiki is called "Rebellion of the Pasta Writers") Get the rights straight, Helel, don't be the new JasiTheHyena (sorry if I spelt his username wrong and he's Sonic.exe's creator for those that don't know)

      You're free to state that as your reason for voting support, but you should be aware that it is absolutely standard practice on this wiki for admins to summarily delete stories that fall below quality standards, and I think even the OP here would agree that your reason for voting Support is not valid. Also, your comparison to JCTheHyena is bizarre and confusing.

      EDIT: Actually according to Rule 6 of the demotion policy, you're not free to cite that as the reason.

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    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:
       

      Support Support - I agree with this considering I only just posted my story and "boom" its gone before I could have some feedback on it. I actually reuploaded it to the TrollPasta wiki and made my own Wiki as a back up for my and my brother's stories (the wiki is called "Rebellion of the Pasta Writers") Get the rights straight, Helel, don't be the new JasiTheHyena (sorry if I spelt his username wrong and he's Sonic.exe's creator for those that don't know)

      You're free to state that as your reason for voting support, but you should be aware that it is absolutely standard practice on this wiki for admins to summarily delete stories that fall below quality standards, and I think even the OP here would agree that your reason for voting Support is not valid. Also, your comparison to JCTheHyena is bizarre and confusing.

      Look, in my honest opinion, I believe a story that falls below standards shouldn't just be deleted but the creator should also be contacted to be told as to why their story was deleted. It doesn't help with just stating that the story doesn't fit the standards. What happened to make it not fit the standards.

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    • DrBobSmith wrote:
      Oppose Oppose -

      I read the charges. I have had some experiences with Helel ben Shahaar. A couple of the interactions have left me pissed, I admit. On the other hand, I don't want to do his job. It's thankless. No matter what you do, somebody is pissed at you. He is our JANITOR. You got to expect janitors to stink sometimes when scrubbing the toilets after all the trollpastas.

      I also separate "at the job site behavior" and "off work behavior." If he were an American, he would have the right of free speech. That includes the right to stick his head up his ass and be a total jerk when he is on his own time as long as what he is doing doesn't attack the site or the participants. If he is an asshole in his private expression offsite then keep away from him.

      I think Helel should be more polite. Hopefully, this will encourage him to hang back and think before posting snarky comments, offensive names or groundless accusations. That said, what he is accused of is crap a NORMAL level user can do. I don't see that he has abused his Admin authority and lowering him down to a common jerk like me wouldn't change things.

      Free speech does not and has never meant exemption from consequences.  And whether or not his behavior would change upon being demoted is irrelevant.  Keeping him as an admin means the people who run the wiki support and condone what he's doing and how he's behaving.

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    • HopelessNightOwl
      HopelessNightOwl removed this reply because:
      To repost as a reply
      06:47, August 2, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Osamu and Corey wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
       

      Support Support - I agree with this considering I only just posted my story and "boom" its gone before I could have some feedback on it. I actually reuploaded it to the TrollPasta wiki and made my own Wiki as a back up for my and my brother's stories (the wiki is called "Rebellion of the Pasta Writers") Get the rights straight, Helel, don't be the new JasiTheHyena (sorry if I spelt his username wrong and he's Sonic.exe's creator for those that don't know)

      You're free to state that as your reason for voting support, but you should be aware that it is absolutely standard practice on this wiki for admins to summarily delete stories that fall below quality standards, and I think even the OP here would agree that your reason for voting Support is not valid. Also, your comparison to JCTheHyena is bizarre and confusing.

      Look, in my honest opinion, I believe a story that falls below standards shouldn't just be deleted but the creator should also be contacted to be told as to why their story was deleted. It doesn't help with just stating that the story doesn't fit the standards. What happened to make it not fit the standards.

      Well, Helel did not create the rule that pastas that don't meet standards are deleted without warning or detailed explanation, and all the other admins do it. And as the talk page template informing you of the deletion says, you can post in Writer's Workshop to get feedback, or make a deletion appeal.

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    • And this is why I can't deal with people. I still don't understand why I come online. I want to be nice, I want to care, I want to interact. But the moment I come online, everything does down the drain and I'm left here thinking what did I do to offend people? That's when I literally just say one thing.

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    • Squidmanescape
      Squidmanescape removed this reply because:
      It's too late and it messes up the flow of the conversation.
      07:39, August 2, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Osamu and Corey wrote: And this is why I can't deal with people. I still don't understand why I come online. I want to be nice, I want to care, I want to interact. But the moment I come online, everything does down the drain and I'm left here thinking what did I do to offend people? That's when I literally just say one thing.

      Your vote wasn't offensive, it was simply uninformed and the reason stated was off-base.

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    • I'll just leave, no point with me dealing with this. I'll just make things worse

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    • Primordialracoon
      Primordialracoon removed this reply because:
      why is not working
      08:46, August 2, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Primordialracoon
      Primordialracoon removed this reply because:
      I can't the support think to work on my mobile
      08:46, August 2, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • I support this.

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    • -Puts up a finger in the air and proceeds to lick it-

      Tastes salty.



      I've read your case and I must deem it utterly silly... Most of your posts are basically personal problems you have with Helel, or personal problems others (may) have with him. You've made only a single point in which you display Helel possibly breaking a single rule a single time. Is this a reason to remove him? No. 

      Is him being mean and politically incorrect a reason to remove him from his position? No. 

      Also, as for his comment about triggers and what not, the guy's right, if you aren't mature enough to safely deal with the content here, you should not be here. I actually moderate a horror based Facebook group and we don't allow people below 18 just for that reason. The content might cause damage we don't want to be accountable for. 

      "He made a sarcastic comment towards Cleric", I'm pretty certain they are friends, so that's alright and even if not. If Cleric had an issue with it, he probably talked it out with Helel. So, again, that's not a point over which you remove the man from his position yet again. 

      How about the Salt Mines of Helel? That doesn't count... I mean, you could call it offensive, you can call it a dick move, you can call it whatever, but this does not mean you should demote him. 

      So basically you've nothing here... 

      Thus, without a further adieu, I must Oppose Oppose -

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    • Oh, interesting. It appears that I have been… besieged, I guess? As much as I would like to make the Empire Strikes Back joke (I loved that film) I get the feeling that this would be inappropriate in this situation, so I’ll just stick to the defence.

      -What I said was a valid question, not an attempt at harassing. Criticism should only be given if it is constructive, and what happened here is a thrashing of a story. But yeah, I guess that my confusion is much more malicious than a guy clearly disliking a pasta.

      -Have I spoken anything but the truth? One single story written by Humby (even his more tame ones, such as The Abalone Thief) can make people really uncomfortable (or worse), and here we have an entire wiki in question, with stuff such as murder, dismemberment, disembowelment, graphic rape and torture, abuse, necrophilia and whatnot galore. Getting offended over a trivial matter such as this is… I don’t even know.

      As for me offending Cleric, there are several reasons I wouldn’t do that:

      1) I respect him greatly as both a writer and a person, and he is a friend.
      2) I have no reason to mock him, aside from trading friendly insults. If I ever think he is doing something wrong, I’ll let him know it directly.
      3) One thing that most senior users have picked up by now is that I am extremely meticulous about my grammar, and will go to pointless lengths to fix even the slight typos. As such, when you find a comment written by me that is so obviously deliberately written in faulty grammar, it means that I am joking.

      -The reason I call Matthew a “pack member” is because he presents himself as a werewolf, and my surname can roughly be translated as “Alfa Wolf.” It’s an inside joke between the two of us, and so far, he never complained about it. If you actually read Matthew’s book, you would understand why I specifically chose the words “headless Coyote” (note that I capitalized the Coyote, which implies personal name rather than an animal). As for the “underdoge,” refer to the argument above regarding deliberate misspellings. If you have time to be offended on his behalf, you might as well do something constructive with that time.

      -Ooh, Hate Wall. Off to a great start already.

      The messages I put there, aside from mean comments, are the messages that have absolutely no merit, whether it’s in basic grammar, politeness, or common courtesy (such as leaving a title and a signature). And what our friend Lokintas here so conveniently left out, is that later on, when that user returned with at least a bit of courtesy and politeness to ask for his story back, I responded, giving him the answer he sought, and even got him his pasta back.

      -Removing the message is against the rules. Moving it is not. Even more so if the page I moved it to is there for all to see. As for the name issue, that holds no weight whatsoever. Would you like an alphabetised list of every occasion I was called “Slave” by Diexilius? A far more serious matter, because unlike one’s name (which can be changed, as you’ve yourself proven, both on Wiki and in your own life), this touches directly to my people, which I can’t simply write myself out from. And you know what? I don’t care. I know he was joking and meant no harm by it. If you think I was actually trying to insult you, you’re just mining for faults. I have far better ways of insulting people than calling them names. And don’t say you are confused: you know damn well that you’ve been removed for behaving inappropriately at a very serious moment. As for transphobia (I hope I spelled it properly, because my Word keeps marking it as a faulty word), there is a very nice, very polite writer that can tell you otherwise

      -This is selective information. Yes, I have deleted the blog, and yes, I have left a message that could be interpreted as a threat, but I have also left a message in which I explained my reasoning for that. And I restored the blog. And I’ve had a long talk with ChaoZ on Discord before many witnesses (one of which was Lokintas), in which we’ve managed to come to terms and apologize to each other.

      -How f***ing dare you!? Banning is a friend of mine and a fellow admin, and he was being accused of plotting a murder! Of course I will try to help him! And furthermore, you assume that I wanted people to leave malicious comments because of what kind of person you think I am? This in itself crashes and burns your argument that you aren’t trying to demonize me as a person. And yes, the problem is Slimebeast, for the reasons I have not time to explain here. And after Cleric reminded me that what I did was illegal (and I admit that it was a brash decision driven by emotion rather than reason) I apologized and removed the post.

      -Finally, things that happen on Discord cannot reflect on Wiki, because Discord and Wiki aren't formally affiliated. If that was the case, several users, you included, would be banned for rules violation.

      And you know that something is wrong with your argument if even Bloody supports me, despite having a good reason not to do so.

      And as much as this may be in bad taste, I Oppose Oppose -

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    • Wait, Cleric said your post was illegal? I don't get it. Even if you literally were telling people to leave negative comments, any law that says you can't tell people "hey everyone, go hate on this video" would be unconstitutional.

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    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Wait, Cleric said your post was illegal? I don't get it. Even if you literally were telling people to leave negative comments, any law that says you can't tell people "hey everyone, go hate on this video" would be unconstitutional.

      I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean?

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    • Oppose Oppose - I joined the Wiki before Helel was an admin, but I became more active around the time of his promotion. Speaking from personal experience, he jokes around a lot. An example could be Humby’s blog post - to me, Helel’s response seems like a joke, and I’m fairly sure Humby sees it that way too.

      Granted, I do think Helel could have handled some situations better, but he doesn’t deserve a demotion because of it. All in all, he’s a nice guy and a good admin.

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    • Support Support - This is purely anecdotal, but the majority of the interactions I’ve had with him, and have seen him have, typically consist of him making a “joking” comment that belittles the person he is talking to while trumping himself up. I could certainly offer my thoughts/opinions on the reason this is, but the “why” ultimately has no bearing. This is not a matter of me not liking Helel. I’m sure he’s a great guy. Besides tons of people haaaaated Empy who I consider the best/most prolific admin this wiki has had. But no matter how inane or salty the comments that were thrown against him, Empy seemed to always manage to respond in a controlled manner that indicated respect for the other party as well as maintaining the maturity of the admin role. That’s not what I’ve seen from Helel.

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    • Oppose Oppose - I'm not going to bother providing counter-arguments to your points because I feel that has already been done by most of the others who've taken this stance in opposition. I feel like Helel contributes far too much to the community to even be considered for a demotion. Frankly I'm upset that this has gained traction and I feel that those who have voted in support of this have not spent enough time dealing with people in the real world.

      I've been inactive recently due to my obligations as a manager at a bar/hotel and I have met all sorts of people, and I've personally seen what it takes to be successful in a position of power over others. I have had firsthand experiences with these kinds of situations in my life and I feel strongly that Helel is a great fit for adminship, and has the potential to grow even more so in the community.

      As an admin, Helel has remained incredibly reliable and active. He deletes stories that don't meet the QS. He promptly reviews stories when you ask him to. He is an active member of the community and is incredibly easily to get ahole of and (i thought) get along with. He has hosted contests, helmed collaborations, and made every effort to support the growth and life of this wikia and its community. 

      Yes, he can come across as a dick. There are some times where he can be abrasive and can come across as rude; but I don't think these are worth a demotion over. Everyone on this wiki has had issues with their attitude at one point or another. That's just a part of life really. Personally I think these issues should have been brought to him, or another member of the community at least (Cleric perhaps) instead of this public display of defamation. You can't really judge someones intentions or even their demeanour through online conversation, and this is an unfortunate situation in which you have taken a handful of bad examples and thrown them at him. If half of this wikiw was as active as him, I'm sure you could find similar examples from everyone.

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    • I am sorry, but I have to Oppose Oppose -. I don't believe what you provided is grounds for demotion (although I will have a talk with Helel for some of the things you brought up).

      A NOTE TO VOTERS

      Before I give my reasons, I want to point out that votes that don't provide a reasoning for the vote will not count. It doesn't matter if you have something personal for or against Helel, this is not a poll to determine if he is well liked or not. This is a poll to see if he is fit to be an admin. Personal feelings towards Helel are not valid reasons for voting here.

      ---

      1) I agree that Helel didn't handle this as well as he could have, but there's nothing more to it. It wasn't unacceptably hostile, just a mildly mean comment. That's all this is. If you can find more comments like that, this might be important. Just a handful of rude comments (in this case one) don't give us much information and is certainly not grounds for demotion.

      2) Helel's original comment was perfectly reasonable and was not rude at all. If you can't handle the image of making out with your non-preferred gender, then this wiki might not be for you since there's a ton of shocking content. Helel's second comment was a joke at Icy, who is a very good friend of Helel (if you need it, proof that Icy and Helel are close).

      3) I will admit Helel's comment on Humboldt was not the best. It was mild criticism in the form of an inside joke. I agree that afterwards Helel might have misread the situation and joked around while Humboldt was being serious. You can't fault him for that, we all have awkward moments, especially online when we can't read the other person's emotions.

      4) I agree that the comment was not as abrasive as most comments on Emp's Salt Mines, but it still was salty, so technically it fits the bill. I personally wouldn't do a Salt Mines thing unless I was getting all the vitriol Emp was getting, but I can't fault him for having such a page. Finally, I agree that the last comment isn't that salty to be added there, so maybe he should remove it for consistency's sake, but this is not relevant here. It's 'eh'. I would suggest to Helel to put real salt in there to not dilute the content of the page.

      5) I agree that he shouldn't have ignored you, that was rude (although I have no context since I am not really on Discord). Again though, unless this is happening en large, I don't see an issue with it.

      On the transphobia: This does not look good, but out of context I can't really form a concrete opinion on this. You just put the messages Helel wrote without providing context. If Helel was bullying you, it is a serious offence. But if it was a two-sided match, I don't think anything can be done. We all know how online pissing fights go, unfortunately.

      I will talk to him about the nature of the comments, since I do not want people to feel unwelcome coming into the wiki. I know that Helel (just like me) is from the Balkans, a very rough part of the world where only the rough (or the rich, of course) survive. It's a very traditional and old-fashioned place, so I can see where these comments come from. I will reach out to him to hash this out.

      6) I agree the blog shouldn't have been deleted and I will talk to him about this too. Again though, it's an isolated incident so it's not grounds for demotion. If he consistently deletes/censors opinions, then it's not cool and we have an issue. If you can provide more such evidence, I might reconsider.

      Also, as HopelessNightOwl has pointed out, Helel deleted the blog because he thought the leaked audio was illegal. When informed otherwise, he restored the blog and hashed things out with the original poster and all parties were satisfied. If this is true, this shows that Helel is fit to be an admin.

      7) I agree that calling for raids is unacceptable (and against the rules of wikis), but this is not that. He simply asked people to hop over and voice their opinion. It's not raiding. I believe Helel acted on emotion because of the history between Slimebeast and Banning. It's a bitter story, and Slimebeast posted a private conversation between Banning and him despite Banning specifically asking for the dialogue to not be posted. I think this is why Helel jumped to action, Slimebeast seems to be out to get Banning.

      Having said that, I am glad that Cleric intervened because I don't want any more trouble with Slimebeast. Still, it's not against the rules and it's not grounds for demotion.

      ---

      All in all, I believe Helel is fit to be an admin and the evidence provided is not grounds for demotion. Remember, you might personally dislike him, but that doesn't make him unfit to be an admin.

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    • MrDupin wrote:
      I am sorry, but I have to Oppose Oppose -. I don't believe what you provided is grounds for demotion (although I will have a talk with Helel for some of the things you brought up).

      A NOTE TO VOTERS

      Before I give my reasons, I want to point out that votes that don't provide a reasoning for the vote will not count. It doesn't matter if you have something personal for or against Helel, this is not a poll to determine if he is well liked or not. This is a poll to see if he is fit to be an admin. Personal feelings towards Helel are not valid reasons for voting here.

      ---

      1) I agree that Helel didn't handle this as well as he could have, but there's nothing more to it. It wasn't unacceptably hostile, just a mildly mean comment. That's all this is. If you can find more comments like that, this might be important. Just a handful of rude comments (in this case one) don't give us much information and is certainly not grounds for demotion.

      2) Helel's original comment was perfectly reasonable and was not rude at all. If you can't handle the image of making out with your non-preferred gender, then this wiki might not be for you since there's a ton of shocking content. Helel's second comment was a joke at Icy, who is a very good friend of Helel (if you need it, proof that Icy and Helel are close).

      3) I will admit Helel's comment on Humboldt was not the best. It was mild criticism in the form of an inside joke. I agree that afterwards Helel might have misread the situation and joked around while Humboldt was being serious. You can't fault him for that, we all have awkward moments, especially online when we can't read the other person's emotions.

      4) I agree that the comment was not as abrasive as most comments on Emp's Salt Mines, but it still was salty, so technically it fits the bill. I personally wouldn't do a Salt Mines thing unless I was getting all the vitriol Emp was getting, but I can't fault him for having such a page. Finally, I agree that the last comment isn't that salty to be added there, so maybe he should remove it for consistency's sake, but this is not relevant here. It's 'eh'. I would suggest to Helel to put real salt in there to not dilute the content of the page.

      5) I agree that he shouldn't have ignored you, that was rude (although I have no context since I am not really on Discord). Again though, unless this is happening en large, I don't see an issue with it.

      On the transphobia: This does not look good, but out of context I can't really form a concrete opinion on this. You just put the messages Helel wrote without providing context. If Helel was bullying you, it is a serious offence. But if it was a two-sided match, I don't think anything can be done. We all know how online pissing fights go, unfortunately.

      I will talk to him about the nature of the comments, since I do not want people to feel unwelcome coming into the wiki. I know that Helel (just like me) is from the Balkans, a very rough part of the world where only the rough (or the rich, of course) survive. It's a very traditional and old-fashioned place, so I can see where these comments come from. I will reach out to him to hash this out.

      6) I agree the blog shouldn't have been deleted and I will talk to him about this too. Again though, it's an isolated incident so it's not grounds for demotion. If he consistently deletes/censors opinions, then it's not cool and we have an issue. If you can provide more such evidence, I might reconsider.

      Also, as HopelessNightOwl has pointed out, Helel deleted the blog because he thought the leaked audio was illegal. When informed otherwise, he restored the blog and hashed things out with the original poster and all parties were satisfied. If this is true, this shows that Helel is fit to be an admin.

      7) I agree that calling for raids is unacceptable (and against the rules of wikis), but this is not that. He simply asked people to hop over and voice their opinion. It's not raiding. I believe Helel acted on emotion because of the history between Slimebeast and Banning. It's a bitter story, and Slimebeast posted a private conversation between Banning and him despite Banning specifically asking for the dialogue to not be posted. I think this is why Helel jumped to action, Slimebeast seems to be out to get Banning.

      Having said that, I am glad that Cleric intervened because I don't want any more trouble with Slimebeast. Still, it's not against the rules and it's not grounds for demotion.

      ---

      All in all, I believe Helel is fit to be an admin and the evidence provided is not grounds for demotion. Remember, you might personally dislike him, but that doesn't make him unfit to be an admin.

      Its like i said all he was doing was his job, okay i know i repeat myself, but i think  Lokintas really has some issue against him that she might not understand herself .

        Loading editor
    • Solonor1987 wrote:

      MrDupin wrote:

      a long ass post

      Its like i said all he was doing was his job, okay i know i repeat myself, but i think  Lokintas really has some issue against him that she might not understand herself .

      This is certainly a possibility. I don’t mean to insult Lokintas, she seems like a pretty cool person, but it seems like Helel not referring to her as her preferred name/pronouns was the reason she made this post. I checked the contributions page for her and it looks like she stopped editing after messaging Helel before coming back with this. And regardless of the problems Loki might have with him, Helel’s a good admin and a nice person, so long as you can realize when he’s joking.

        Loading editor
    • This is certainly a possibility. I don’t mean to insult Lokintas, she seems like a pretty cool person, but it seems like Helel not referring to her as her preferred name/pronouns was the reason she made this post. I checked the contributions page for her and it looks like she stopped editing after messaging Helel before coming back with this. And regardless of the problems Loki might have with him, Helel’s a good admin and a nice person, so long as you can realize when he’s joking.

      Misgendering someone is not a small thing.  It's a serious issue that causes a lot of distress, and if it was done with malicious intent then that needs to be dealt with.  No one should be allowed to get away with that.  If it was a mistake, then sure that happens, but intention is everything here.

      Secondly, I would like to state again, an admin should educate people, not threaten them straight out of the gate.  Helel's threats are not called for, especially with new users and people who are just learning the system of the wiki, which I'm sure we can all agree is confusing and unintuitive at first.  His tone and behavior have abuse of power written all over them, and I hope the other admins will put a stop to it somehow, even if he's not demoted.

        Loading editor
    • Oppose Oppose -

      I try to keep myself largely removed from drama between members of this community, but it’s come to my attention that Lokinatas has raised some issues of concern with Helel’s behavior, as an administrator both on and off of the wiki. I will first address the concerns presented on the wiki which show Helel acting as an unmitigated douchebag.

      The first image is him criticizing a new member for providing an opinion and critique, which on its face does not look good. However, if you read the new member’s actual comment, you quickly find that the “critique” in the comment has zero substance to it, and that I feel was what Helel was addressing. He didn’t say explicitly “We don’t want you here.” He said, “You just made an account, and this is really your first comment?” Which is a polite way of pointing out the commenter probably didn’t think things through before posting.


      Next up, I will address Helel “mocking” the user. He is stating that if she is triggered by certain kinds of content, then a HORROR/CREEPY PASTA website is probably not the best place for her to be. I provide content warnings when I’m introducing potentially triggering elements things outside of the wiki, because I am conscious of how it may affect people who are not prepared for it. I don’t on the wiki because I assume by default if you’re reading a story on a HORRROR website you are already fine with triggering content. Now, the rest of the users that dog piled on the conversation is kind of a dick bag thing to do, but also not quite something Helel can control 100%. He could’ve not egged them on, or he could’ve done what Cleric did and ask for them to not dogpile, but as far as I’m aware there is currently no rule against what happened. Now, I can’t speak for his relationship with Cleric, but from what I’ve seen is that Helel’s default nature is sarcasm with friends when he isn’t being serious. But the moment when he’s serious, he stops and full on says “folks, I’m wearing my serious breeches now.”


      Now in regards to Helel’s comment on Humby’s blog. Was it dumb? Fuck yes. However, as others have previously stated (and even in the screen shot YOU provided) it was clear that there was a moment of confusion where Humby and Helel were not on the same page. Helel’s default mode is sarcasm between people he’s friends with.

      Now, on to the moments of transphobia. I myself am unabashedly trans. I briefly left Helel’s discord server after he said something transphobic towards me. He approached me a few days later and apologized and asked what he had done wrong. I explained it to him and he asked that in the future I let him know when he’s crossed the line and he will adjust. This is not the mindset of a transphobe. Casual transphobia is a problem, and I agree that it’s something that needs to be addressed, but Helel has been very respectful towards me. He did call me Chuckles and a bunch of other names when I told him that I had decided that I was indeed a woman, but I didn’t quite feel like he was mocking me for that. It was a joke that went over my head, and I still don’t understand, but it was a joke all the same. Him deadnaming you is a problem, but I also do not know the context of him deadnaming you, so I cannot speak on that.

      The rest of this is just a smear campaign itself. He linked a PUBLICALLY available and SHITTY thing that Slimebeast did and encouraged people to comment about it and let Slimebeast know that it was shitty. He acted in support of Banning in the following screenshot. In conclusion, at least as far as I can tell, Helel is a dick, yes, but he has a good heart. He is not unfit to be an administrator. He isn’t kicking puppies and throwing babies into incinerators. He's doing his job, in a sometimes abrasive manner and I feel this is nothing more than somebody trying to get Helel demoted by stirring up outrage at non-issues.

        Loading editor
    • Jdeschene wrote:

      This is certainly a possibility. I don’t mean to insult Lokintas, she seems like a pretty cool person, but it seems like Helel not referring to her as her preferred name/pronouns was the reason she made this post. I checked the contributions page for her and it looks like she stopped editing after messaging Helel before coming back with this. And regardless of the problems Loki might have with him, Helel’s a good admin and a nice person, so long as you can realize when he’s joking.

      Misgendering someone is not a small thing.  It's a serious issue that causes a lot of distress, and if it was done with malicious intent then that needs to be dealt with.  No one should be allowed to get away with that.  If it was a mistake, then sure that happens, but intention is everything here.

      Secondly, I would like to state again, an admin should educate people, not threaten them straight out of the gate.  Helel's threats are not called for, especially with new users and people who are just learning the system of the wiki, which I'm sure we can all agree is confusing and unintuitive at first.  His tone and behavior have abuse of power written all over them, and I hope the other admins will put a stop to it somehow, even if he's not demoted.

      Umm that's where i had to disagree with you, because he do nothing wrong , if you think that Lokintas is right well sorry, but she's not, because i think it will be more oppose then support , because no one see what he did wrong,  and yes mistaking a name its a small thing, it also happen to me, because some time i don't know the real sex if that a boy or a girl because some doesn't show them in their page.

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    • Oppose Oppose - From an operations standpoint, demoting Helel would be detrimental. As a business manager myself, I rely on hard working and attentive individuals like Helel to make sure my operations run smoothly.

      Each and everyday that I log onto the Wiki, I see Helel constantly editing pages and coaching people on the rules of the site. If he comes off as crass or "mean" i firmly believe it's part of his job to give direct feedback to those who need it. But I believe some folks are just sensitive to the way he speaks. His answers are generally blunt, but in each interaction I have had with him, he never comes off as disrespectful, just straightforward.

      I also don't believe personal opinions should affect someones demotions or promotions, but if it helps at all, I have met very few if any writers/contributors on this site who care as much about CPW as Helel.

        Loading editor
    • So, I have taken some time to summarize why I support his demotion in a blog post here should anyone choose to read it and consider what I have to say.

        Loading editor
    • Llanunall wrote:
      So, I have taken some time to summarize why I support his demotion in a blog post here should anyone choose to read it and consider what I have to say.

      Said the guy who's change fast his mind.

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    • Solonor1987 wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:
      So, I have taken some time to summarize why I support his demotion in a blog post here should anyone choose to read it and consider what I have to say.

      Said the guy who's change fast his mind.

      Deeper research revealed that I don't actually agree with his actions on the site. Changing your opinion is never a bad thing, especially not when it comes to considering evidence put forth on a demotion petition.

        Loading editor
    • Llanunall wrote:

      Solonor1987 wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:
      So, I have taken some time to summarize why I support his demotion in a blog post here should anyone choose to read it and consider what I have to say.
      Said the guy who's change fast his mind.
      Deeper research revealed that I don't actually agree with his actions on the site. Changing your opinion is never a bad thing, especially not when it comes to considering evidence put forth on a demotion petition.

      Umm sorry , but did you see something its more oppose then support, because people might agree he's rude,  but this is not a reason to demoted him, he was just doing his job because the person said that the story he read was awful,  sure he does has issue off wikia, but unfortunately  Lokintas will not win.

        Loading editor
    • Solonor1987 wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      Solonor1987 wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:
      So, I have taken some time to summarize why I support his demotion in a blog post here should anyone choose to read it and consider what I have to say.
      Said the guy who's change fast his mind.
      Deeper research revealed that I don't actually agree with his actions on the site. Changing your opinion is never a bad thing, especially not when it comes to considering evidence put forth on a demotion petition.

      Umm sorry , but did you see something its more oppose then support, because people might agree he's rude,  but this is not a reason to demoted him, he was just doing his job because the person said that the story he read was awful,  sure he does has issue off wikia, but unfortunately  Lokintas will not win.

      This isn't a game and ultimately there are no winners. In the end we either lose an admin and continue in a rather understaffed manner or we have to put up with an admin who acts in a brash and inappropriate manner.

      As this is a forum for community feedback I am giving just that. There is no reason that we have to agree on his demotion and whether or not you are swayed by my arguments is ultimately up to you and your views on how an administrator should represent the site. To me he is not necessarily a good fit because of his rather poor conduct both on and off the site.

        Loading editor
    • Oppose Oppose - After some deliberation, discussing with the accused, and looking at the evidence in this thread I throughly believe that there is no reason to demote Helel. Yes, their behavior at times can come off as threatening and rude and that's not a good thing but having discussed this with them Helel knows it would be better to change the tone they sometimes use here on the wiki to a more professional one and perhaps keep the in jokes to a minimum as it may have new users come to believe that that behavior is okay without them fulling understanding the context.

      In regards to my blog being deleted and then reinstated I am not sure as to why it is being brought up, that situation was handled rather quickly with both myself and Helel apologizing to one another. Sure a mistake was made but that mistake was rectified, discussed, and dealt with in a civil manner with Helel acting precisely as how an admin should. My misinterpretation of his comment as a threat was just that, a misinterpretation. It was not meant to be one.

      Now, I refuse to believe the misgendering and use of a dead name was not done without some back and forth between the two of you in which case it was done off wiki and in a moment of a heated discussion in which I am sure both of you said some things you shouldn't have said. However I do not see the full context of what happened being presented here as screenshots of what you said as well are strangely missing as if to purposefully minconstrew the situation into making Helel look worse. If that is the case than shame on you, you should know better.

      Now to address Llanunall, I do not why you went out of your way to make a blog post instead of just posting all that same information here in the thread itself where it is pretinent and that seems oddly suspicious to me. So allow me to hazard a guess as to why you have chosen to do so, I believe you know that some people may or may ignore the fact that this demotion thread is highlighted due to the fact they either just do not care for this kind of thing or because they do not know who Helel actually is. However if they were scrolling down the main page they'd see your blog post on the sidebar expressing your opinion of the whole situation using the very same information that is already highlighted right here in the thread, basically retreading the same ground covered by the thread as if it were new information in an effort to draw attention to this thread to have more people come and vote on the thread. Those people may just jump to the bottom of the thread, leave their vote, and ignore the things said by other users in this very thread that either refute points of Helel's own defense of himself. If I am correct in this judgement than it'd be disingenious of me to simply leave it be without saying something about it. Ultimately your blog post on the matter comes of as underhanded and decietful as nothing you put forth absolutely could not be said here in the thread and none of it is new information. Get your act together if that is the case. Lead by example.

        Loading editor
    • Llanunall wrote:

      Solonor1987 wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      Solonor1987 wrote:


      Llanunall wrote:
      So, I have taken some time to summarize why I support his demotion in a blog post here should anyone choose to read it and consider what I have to say.
      Said the guy who's change fast his mind.
      Deeper research revealed that I don't actually agree with his actions on the site. Changing your opinion is never a bad thing, especially not when it comes to considering evidence put forth on a demotion petition.
      Umm sorry , but did you see something its more oppose then support, because people might agree he's rude,  but this is not a reason to demoted him, he was just doing his job because the person said that the story he read was awful,  sure he does has issue off wikia, but unfortunately  Lokintas will not win.
      This isn't a game and ultimately there are no winners. In the end we either lose an admin and continue in a rather understaffed manner or we have to put up with an admin who acts in a brash and inappropriate manner.

      As this is a forum for community feedback I am giving just that. There is no reason that we have to agree on his demotion and whether or not you are swayed by my arguments is ultimately up to you and your views on how an administrator should represent the site. To me he is not necessarily a good fit because of his rather poor conduct both on and off the site.

      Oh when other members are rude its not a problem , but when administrator are rude it is, well I have to disagree with this, sure some administrators can be rude  and sometime it is because some members provoked them, so, I can tell you nobody's perfect.

        Loading editor
    • ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Oppose Oppose - After some deliberation, discussing with the accused, and looking at the evidence in this thread I throughly believe that there is no reason to demote Helel. Yes, their behavior at times can come off as threatening and rude and that's not a good thing but having discussed this with them Helel knows it would be better to change the tone they sometimes use here on the wiki to a more professional one and perhaps keep the in jokes to a minimum as it may have new users come to believe that that behavior is okay without them fulling understanding the context.

      For what it's worth, I think this is a good solution.

        Loading editor
    • Jdeschene wrote:

      ChaoZStrider wrote:

      -solution-

      For what it's worth, I think this is a good solution.

      Don't worry Jdeschene, we are going to have a discussion with Helel once this is all over.

        Loading editor
    • I’ll open this with what Banning said on your admin application as it is pertinent to what’s going on: “As far as my concerns go, my biggest is that you may still need to improve on your ability to finesse agitated situations. The tone in your application, as well as some of your word choices makes me slightly concerned, but I am hoping that those instances were meant in humor. Remember, as an Admin, you will be the face and voice of this community. Your decisions (deletions, bans, warnings... etc) need to be made based strictly on the written rules and policies. Once you get admin rights, you can't stoop to the level of an irate user who may resort to calling you names. Some people will take deletions very poorly and may respond with some nasty messages. You have to always be the bigger person and remain professional.”

      Starting with the positives, Helel is active on the wiki and generally responds to situations within a day of them being posted. This ranges from deleting spam pages, banning vandals, renaming pages, etc. This is essential for the wiki to run smoothly. It also acts as a deterrent to shit-posting if it’s cleaned up quickly.

      He’s also on Discord and seems to generally enjoy interacting with users which does help relations between admins and users. Unfortunately given that this situation has risen due to some of his actions on that server, there’s a drawback here and his caustic/joking nature can cause discord (yes, I am aware of the pun) like we’re seeing here.

      Onto the negatives: Taking his response to the thread: “I responded, giving him the answer he sought, and even got him his pasta back.” He did do that, but he also wrote: “But I must warn you that most of us admins don't like playing fetch simply because the users were reckless.” which doesn’t set the best tone (more on that below).

      On the topic of Helel’s Wall, reading it over, it seems like Helel has been misconstruing inquiries for hate. Simon Slaughter’s message is just him asking why his story was deleted and Helel’s response doesn’t set the best tone for future conversations with that user given its loaded nature. Also his interactions with other users have left a lot to be [1] in terms of response and highlighting issues present in their story (grammatical errors should be talked about a bit more as those can be fixed, but if there are other issues present in the story in terms of plot they should be brought up with the person who's asking why their story was deleted).

      The activity when other admins are busy/asleep/living a happy and productive life can be a double-edged sword. He decided to delete Strider’s blog without consulting any of the other admins (I assume) and even though he undid the deletion and talked it out with Chaoz, it wasn’t before this. Anyone not looking into things too deeply (i.e. contacting the people involved) can accidentally misread this as censorship/silencing on part of the wiki even if it came from a place of thinking the blog violated ToU. His message to Chaoz was also fairly nebulous and could be misconstrued as intimidation as well (as the OP originally took it). This kind of response is likely to cause problems down the line.

      All in all, I do worry that Helel doesn't know how to properly mediate between users and admins (combined with his tendency to jokingly talk down to some users which some people are no longer seeing as jokes) and this could cause some fraction that would be hard to deal with if he happens to be alone on the wiki during an incident without someone to let a higher-up know what's going on that can intervene. He restored that blog after other users on Discord brought it up with him. He only stopped rallying people to argue on SB's video after Cleric got involved. Both of these are incidents that could have blown up into much larger issues that damage the reputation of the wiki.

      It truly is a rock and a hard place. This wiki needs activity and someone to quality-check incoming stories, but the wiki needs to be a welcoming place that promotes authors stories which Helel hasn't always done given his temperament.

      Unfortunately what tips this scale even though I have been on better terms with Milan is how he has handled himself on Discord before and after this thread. Being friends unfortunately makes this next part hard, but I have to do what I think is best for the future of this site. Seeing how he’s responded to the demotion thread and comments he’s made on Discord have solidified my opinion. While I understand that it is separate from the site, it most certainly bleeds over and can impact things on the Creepypasta Wiki when it's comprised of users from the wiki.

      Here’s a few screen grabs where he (under the handle of Darth Boreas in general chat) encourages people to raid Slimebeast’s webpage:

      Raid
      Raid Part 2

      You can argue and say it was said in jest, this is the internet and people don’t make the best decision when they think they’re anonymous (see: the idiot who mailed threatening messages to Chris’ house) or are unable to discern a joke from honesty). What would happen if a group of people did go off and try to spam/flame/raid Slimebeast’s webpage and then that image was brought to their attention? How would it look? To me, it would look like an admin on the wiki was actively encouraging someone to go and start drama on another site even if what he said was meant to be taken as a joke.

      While his most recent comments about people who have written/supported this thread is on a private Discord, those people are part of the wiki nonetheless and being disparaging only makes matters worse. While I would hope more level heads would prevail, I can see comments like this and what was mentioned above causing unnecessary strife on a site that is focused on being a community interested in horror literature. This is longer than I would have hoped (and I spent my break in-between studying ti write this), but I feel like I owe it to the site to do what is best for it. As it currently stands, I don’t think Helel is ready for the responsibility and I worry how his approach will impact people coming to the site. As Banning mentioned in his application: “Remember, as an Admin, you will be the face and voice of this community. Your decisions (deletions, bans, warnings... etc) need to be made based strictly on the written rules and policies.” Unfortunately given these past few issues, I don’t think you’re quite ready.

      Regardless of the results of this thread, I think that it's going to be necessary for admins/crats to have a discussion with Helel about basic interaction with users on the site and how matters off site can become relevant when they involve people who are on this wiki.

      Support Support -

        Loading editor
    • EmpyrealInvective wrote:
      I’ll open this with what Banning said on your admin application as it is pertinent to what’s going on: “As far as my concerns go, my biggest is that you may still need to improve on your ability to finesse agitated situations. The tone in your application, as well as some of your word choices makes me slightly concerned, but I am hoping that those instances were meant in humor. Remember, as an Admin, you will be the face and voice of this community. Your decisions (deletions, bans, warnings... etc) need to be made based strictly on the written rules and policies. Once you get admin rights, you can't stoop to the level of an irate user who may resort to calling you names. Some people will take deletions very poorly and may respond with some nasty messages. You have to always be the bigger person and remain professional.”

      Starting with the positives, Helel is active on the wiki and generally responds to situations within a day of them being posted. This ranges from deleting spam pages, banning vandals, renaming pages, etc. This is essential for the wiki to run smoothly. It also acts as a deterrent to shit-posting if it’s cleaned up quickly.

      He’s also on Discord and seems to generally enjoy interacting with users which does help relations between admins and users. Unfortunately given that this situation has risen due to some of his actions on that server, there’s a drawback here and his caustic/joking nature can cause discord (yes, I am aware of the pun) like we’re seeing here.

      Onto the negatives: Taking his response to the thread: “I responded, giving him the answer he sought, and even got him his pasta back.” He did do that, but he also wrote: “But I must warn you that most of us admins don't like playing fetch simply because the users were reckless.” which doesn’t set the best tone (more on that below).

      On the topic of Helel’s Wall, reading it over, it seems like Helel has been misconstruing inquiries for hate. Simon Slaughter’s message is just him asking why his story was deleted and Helel’s response doesn’t set the best tone for future conversations with that user given its loaded nature. Also his interactions with other users have left a lot to be [1] in terms of response and highlighting issues present in their story (grammatical errors should be talked about a bit more as those can be fixed, but if there are other issues present in the story in terms of plot they should be brought up with the person who's asking why their story was deleted).

      The activity when other admins are busy/asleep/living a happy and productive life can be a double-edged sword. He decided to delete Strider’s blog without consulting any of the other admins (I assume) and even though he undid the deletion and talked it out with Chaoz, it wasn’t before this. Anyone not looking into things too deeply (i.e. contacting the people involved) can accidentally misread this as censorship/silencing on part of the wiki even if it came from a place of thinking the blog violated ToU. His message to Chaoz was also fairly nebulous and could be misconstrued as intimidation as well (as the OP originally took it). This kind of response is likely to cause problems down the line.

      All in all, I do worry that Helel doesn't know how to properly mediate between users and admins (combined with his tendency to jokingly talk down to some users which some people are no longer seeing as jokes) and this could cause some fraction that would be hard to deal with if he happens to be alone on the wiki during an incident without someone to let a higher-up know what's going on that can intervene. He restored that blog after other users on Discord brought it up with him. He only stopped rallying people to argue on SB's video after Cleric got involved. Both of these are incidents that could have blown up into much larger issues that damage the reputation of the wiki.

      It truly is a rock and a hard place. This wiki needs activity and someone to quality-check incoming stories, but the wiki needs to be a welcoming place that promotes authors stories which Helel hasn't always done given his temperament.

      Unfortunately what tips this scale even though I have been on better terms with Milan is how he has handled himself on Discord before and after this thread. Being friends unfortunately makes this next part hard, but I have to do what I think is best for the future of this site. Seeing how he’s responded to the demotion thread and comments he’s made on Discord have solidified my opinion. While I understand that it is separate from the site, it most certainly bleeds over and can impact things on the Creepypasta Wiki when it's comprised of users from the wiki.

      Here’s a few screen grabs where he (under the handle of Darth Boreas in general chat) encourages people to raid Slimebeast’s webpage:

      Raid
      Raid Part 2

      You can argue and say it was said in jest, this is the internet and people don’t make the best decision when they think they’re anonymous (see: the idiot who mailed threatening messages to Chris’ house) or are unable to discern a joke from honesty). What would happen if a group of people did go off and try to spam/flame/raid Slimebeast’s webpage and then that image was brought to their attention? How would it look? To me, it would look like an admin on the wiki was actively encouraging someone to go and start drama on another site even if what he said was meant to be taken as a joke.

      While his most recent comments about people who have written/supported this thread is on a private Discord, those people are part of the wiki nonetheless and being disparaging only makes matters worse. While I would hope more level heads would prevail, I can see comments like this and what was mentioned above causing unnecessary strife on a site that is focused on being a community interested in horror literature. This is longer than I would have hoped (and I spent my break in-between studying ti write this), but I feel like I owe it to the site to do what is best for it. As it currently stands, I don’t think Helel is ready for the responsibility and I worry how his approach will impact people coming to the site. As Banning mentioned in his application: “Remember, as an Admin, you will be the face and voice of this community. Your decisions (deletions, bans, warnings... etc) need to be made based strictly on the written rules and policies.” Unfortunately given these past few issues, I don’t think you’re quite ready.

      Regardless of the results of this thread, I think that it's going to be necessary for admins/crats to have a discussion with Helel about basic interaction with users on the site and how matters off site can become relevant when they involve people who are on this wiki.

      Support Support -

      Wait a minute I thought you were an administrator before, what the heck happen.

        Loading editor
    • He left due to RL obligations.

        Loading editor
    • Helel ben Shahaar wrote:
      He left due to RL obligations.

      Oh that make sense

        Loading editor
    • If we could pay $20/hour, I know who I would hire. She would really do a great job. Unfortunately, this is a volunteer position.

      Remember that when voting. There are no assurances of anybody stepping up to fill Helel's shoes.

      I am very glad that there will be some "Executive Sensitivity Training" sessions.

        Loading editor
    • DrBobSmith wrote: If we could pay $20/hour, I know who I would hire. She would really do a great job. Unfortunately, this is a volunteer position.

      Remember that when voting. There are no assurances of anybody stepping up to fill Helel's shoes.

      I am very glad that there will be some "Executive Sensitivity Training" sessions.

      I think I share the sentiment of the original poster. While it would suck to be down an admin I think that it is a better alternative than having an admin who cannot conduct himself properly in a position to harm the reputation of the site.

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    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

      It's not about changing someone's opinion.  That's a distraction from the issue.  Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party.  People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

      Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position.

        Loading editor
    • "It's not about changing someone's opinion. That's a distraction from the issue. Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party. People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences."

      Serious inquiry: can you substantiate, in specific terms, what about Helel's actions were discrimination?

        Loading editor
    • Jdeschene wrote:
      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

      It's not about changing someone's opinion.  That's a distraction from the issue.  Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party.  People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

      Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position.

      While I agree with you on both counts, I can't call it discrimination. We have Lokintas word against Helel's and in this thread the only screenshots shown by Lokintas show only what Helel said and not the full conversation. Perhaps Lokintas said something to upset and anger Helel and is simply leaving that part out. If that is the case than it is purposefully making Helel out to be a worse person than he is. I won't call Helel transphobic or suggest he is discriminating without evidence including both sides of the story to make a full assessment.

        Loading editor
    • ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

      It's not about changing someone's opinion.  That's a distraction from the issue.  Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party.  People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

      Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position.

      While I agree with you on both counts, I can't call it discrimination. We have Lokintas word against Helel's and in this thread the only screenshots shown by Lokintas show only what Helel said and not the full conversation. Perhaps Lokintas said something to upset and anger Helel and leaving that part out. If that is the case than it is purposefully making Helel out to be a worse person than he is. I won't call Helel transphobic or suggest he is discriminating without evidence including both sides of the story to make a full assessment.

      Dead-naming and misgendering someone is absolutely discrimination, regardless of the circumstances.  Whether or not he was discriminated against first is unclear, but neither circumstance gives him the right to discriminate in return.

        Loading editor
    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Serious inquiry: can you substantiate, in specific terms, what about Helel's actions were discrimination?

      Dead-naming and misgendering someone after knowing of their transition is discrimination if it was done intentionally.

        Loading editor
    • Here's the thing: the OP made a deal out of Helel using a "dead" name to refer to them. I find it highly presumptuous for a user to think they get to just declare a previous identity "dead" and demand everyone else honor such.

      I don't know Helel's specific opinion, but as far as I am concerned he has the right to say "look, I know you as James Chape and you are still James to me. Deal with it." The user in question had already switched profiles once before. Would they be complaining if Helel kept calling them "Dinkleberg"?

        Loading editor
    • HopelessNightOwl wrote: Here's the thing: the OP made a deal out of Helel using a "dead" name to refer to them. I find it highly presumptuous for a user to think they get to just declare a previous identity "dead" and demand everyone else honor such.

      I don't know Helel's specific opinion, but as far as I am concerned he has the right to say "look, I know you as James Chape and you are still James to me. Deal with it." The user in question had already switched profiles once before. Would they be complaining if Helel kept calling them "Dinkleberg"?

      I think it's the metaphorical aspect, like calling a butterfly a cocoon because it was a cocoon, in the sense that someone turns into another person.

        Loading editor
    • I'll set aside the "dead naming" thing for now (already mentioned it in previous post I just made), but if you consider "misgendering" to be an offense that should be against the rules, what you are basically implying is that a person should not be allowed to refer to a transgender person unless that person is willing to acknowledge the other's identity switch. If you don't believe in transgender identity to begin with, that basically means you are not allowed to refer to that person at all, which is a form of trying to force them to change their opinions.

        Loading editor
    • Jdeschene wrote:
      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

      It's not about changing someone's opinion.  That's a distraction from the issue.  Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party.  People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

      Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position.

      While I agree with you on both counts, I can't call it discrimination. We have Lokintas word against Helel's and in this thread the only screenshots shown by Lokintas show only what Helel said and not the full conversation. Perhaps Lokintas said something to upset and anger Helel and leaving that part out. If that is the case than it is purposefully making Helel out to be a worse person than he is. I won't call Helel transphobic or suggest he is discriminating without evidence including both sides of the story to make a full assessment.
      Dead-naming and misgendering someone is absolutely discrimination, regardless of the circumstances.  Whether or not he was discriminated against first is unclear, but neither circumstance gives him the right to discriminate in return.

      Purposefully saying something to hurt someone in a heated argument where both people in question are saying heated things is not at all what I would call discrimination. I'd call that two people insulting each other in a way they know it will effect each other. For example I hate to be called my birthname but if someone were to do it while we were arguing I'd have no grounds to claim they were discriminating against me.

      Simply put we do not know the circumstances of what was said because all we have been given is one side of the argument in those screenshots. Calling Helel transphobic without everything being in the light when it comes to what happened is just silly and poorly done. In those screenshots it shows Helel saying "Jimmy" it could have been Helel, while upset, responding to Lokintas, while also upset, using something that he knew at the time would upset him or even playing on the phrase "rustled your jimmies." We don't have the full context of the situation to make such weighty claims. I'd personally suggest we leave that well enough alone until we either get more information on what the whole discussion was or simply drop it entirely. Going around calling people racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, bigotted, or discriminatory without knowing the full situation is just a bad move.

        Loading editor
    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'll set aside the "dead naming" thing for now (already mentioned it in previous post I just made), but if you consider "misgendering" to be an offense that should be against the rules, what you are basically implying is that a person should not be allowed to refer to a transgender person unless that person is willing to acknowledge the other's identity switch. If you don't believe in transgender identity to begin with, that basically means you are not allowed to refer to that person at all, which is a form of trying to force them to change their opinions.

      Maybe he shouldn't.  You have no say in what another person's identity is. You have the right not to acknowledge whatever you want, but  the other person also has the right not to associate you if you don't accept their reality.  It comes down to common courtesy.  If someone says they identify a certain way, you're not in a position to tell them they don't.  

        Loading editor
    • Squidmanescape wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote: Here's the thing: the OP made a deal out of Helel using a "dead" name to refer to them. I find it highly presumptuous for a user to think they get to just declare a previous identity "dead" and demand everyone else honor such.

      I don't know Helel's specific opinion, but as far as I am concerned he has the right to say "look, I know you as James Chape and you are still James to me. Deal with it." The user in question had already switched profiles once before. Would they be complaining if Helel kept calling them "Dinkleberg"?

      I think it's the metaphorical aspect, like calling a butterfly a cocoon because it was a cocoon, in the sense that someone turns into another person.

      It would be one thing if they were just using it as a metaphor, but the user in question is throwing around "dead" in an attempt to directly control what someone else can and cannot say and think about them, and I don't find that acceptable.

        Loading editor


    • Oppose Oppose -

      Helel's behavior is quite questionable. However, Helel is doing the job of an Admin.

      I think that Helel was trying to release a bit of humor after all these tense years of keeping the wiki in order.   

        Loading editor
    • ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

      It's not about changing someone's opinion.  That's a distraction from the issue.  Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party.  People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

      Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position.

      While I agree with you on both counts, I can't call it discrimination. We have Lokintas word against Helel's and in this thread the only screenshots shown by Lokintas show only what Helel said and not the full conversation. Perhaps Lokintas said something to upset and anger Helel and leaving that part out. If that is the case than it is purposefully making Helel out to be a worse person than he is. I won't call Helel transphobic or suggest he is discriminating without evidence including both sides of the story to make a full assessment.
      Dead-naming and misgendering someone is absolutely discrimination, regardless of the circumstances.  Whether or not he was discriminated against first is unclear, but neither circumstance gives him the right to discriminate in return.
      Purposefully saying something to hurt someone in a heated argument where both people in question are saying heated things is not at all what I would call discrimination. I'd call that two people insulting each other in a way they know it will effect each other. For example I hate to be called my birthname but if someone were to do it while we were arguing I'd have no grounds to claim they were discriminating against me.

      Simply put we do not know the circumstances of what was said because all we have been given is one side of the argument in those screenshots. Calling Helel transphobic without everything being in the light when it comes to what happened is just silly and poorly done. In those screenshots it shows Helel saying "Jimmy" it could have been Helel, while upset, responding to Lokintas, while also upset, using something that he knew at the time would upset him or even playing on the phrase "rustled your jimmies." We don't have the full context of the situation to make such weighty claims. I'd personally suggest we leave that well enough alone until we either get more information on what the whole discussion was or simply drop it entirely. Going around calling people racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, bigotted, or discriminatory without knowing the full situation is just a bad move.

      The question that needs to be asked is: was the dead-naming intentional?  If the answer is yes, the rest of the context is irrelevant.  There is no excuse for intentional dead-naming and this should not be tolerated.

        Loading editor
    • Jdeschene wrote:

      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

      It's not about changing someone's opinion.  That's a distraction from the issue.  Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party.  People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

      Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position.

      While I agree with you on both counts, I can't call it discrimination. We have Lokintas word against Helel's and in this thread the only screenshots shown by Lokintas show only what Helel said and not the full conversation. Perhaps Lokintas said something to upset and anger Helel and leaving that part out. If that is the case than it is purposefully making Helel out to be a worse person than he is. I won't call Helel transphobic or suggest he is discriminating without evidence including both sides of the story to make a full assessment.
      Dead-naming and misgendering someone is absolutely discrimination, regardless of the circumstances.  Whether or not he was discriminated against first is unclear, but neither circumstance gives him the right to discriminate in return.
      Purposefully saying something to hurt someone in a heated argument where both people in question are saying heated things is not at all what I would call discrimination. I'd call that two people insulting each other in a way they know it will effect each other. For example I hate to be called my birthname but if someone were to do it while we were arguing I'd have no grounds to claim they were discriminating against me.

      Simply put we do not know the circumstances of what was said because all we have been given is one side of the argument in those screenshots. Calling Helel transphobic without everything being in the light when it comes to what happened is just silly and poorly done. In those screenshots it shows Helel saying "Jimmy" it could have been Helel, while upset, responding to Lokintas, while also upset, using something that he knew at the time would upset him or even playing on the phrase "rustled your jimmies." We don't have the full context of the situation to make such weighty claims. I'd personally suggest we leave that well enough alone until we either get more information on what the whole discussion was or simply drop it entirely. Going around calling people racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, bigotted, or discriminatory without knowing the full situation is just a bad move.

      The question that needs to be asked is: was the dead-naming intentional?  If the answer is yes, the rest of the context is irrelevant.  There is no excuse for intentional dead-naming and this should not be tolerated.

      Given that he still has her being called "Jimmy" on his hate page shows that there is still some spite that has continued on past the argument, past the discord, and is now present on the wiki. I would call that intentional.

        Loading editor
    • BlueHeart7693 wrote:
       


      Oppose Oppose -Oppose -

      Helel's behavior is quite questionable. However, Helel is doing the job of an Admin.

      I think that Helel was trying to release a bit of humor after all these tense years of keeping the wiki in order.   

      Yeah , but it seem that some people don't have humor sense and don't get the joke he tried to do.

        Loading editor
    • Llanunall wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:

      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

      It's not about changing someone's opinion.  That's a distraction from the issue.  Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party.  People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

      Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position.

      While I agree with you on both counts, I can't call it discrimination. We have Lokintas word against Helel's and in this thread the only screenshots shown by Lokintas show only what Helel said and not the full conversation. Perhaps Lokintas said something to upset and anger Helel and leaving that part out. If that is the case than it is purposefully making Helel out to be a worse person than he is. I won't call Helel transphobic or suggest he is discriminating without evidence including both sides of the story to make a full assessment.
      Dead-naming and misgendering someone is absolutely discrimination, regardless of the circumstances.  Whether or not he was discriminated against first is unclear, but neither circumstance gives him the right to discriminate in return.
      Purposefully saying something to hurt someone in a heated argument where both people in question are saying heated things is not at all what I would call discrimination. I'd call that two people insulting each other in a way they know it will effect each other. For example I hate to be called my birthname but if someone were to do it while we were arguing I'd have no grounds to claim they were discriminating against me.

      Simply put we do not know the circumstances of what was said because all we have been given is one side of the argument in those screenshots. Calling Helel transphobic without everything being in the light when it comes to what happened is just silly and poorly done. In those screenshots it shows Helel saying "Jimmy" it could have been Helel, while upset, responding to Lokintas, while also upset, using something that he knew at the time would upset him or even playing on the phrase "rustled your jimmies." We don't have the full context of the situation to make such weighty claims. I'd personally suggest we leave that well enough alone until we either get more information on what the whole discussion was or simply drop it entirely. Going around calling people racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, bigotted, or discriminatory without knowing the full situation is just a bad move.

      The question that needs to be asked is: was the dead-naming intentional?  If the answer is yes, the rest of the context is irrelevant.  There is no excuse for intentional dead-naming and this should not be tolerated.
      Given that he still has her being called "Jimmy" on his hate page shows that there is still some spite that has continued on past the argument, past the discord, and is now present on the wiki. I would call that intentional.

      The two of you are completely missing the point I had made and am trying to make so let me say this rather simply. Context matters. An argument with two people saying this out of spite and hurling insults is something entirely different from discrimination.

      For example if Lokintas was calling Helel a filthy commie or a gopnik bastard than, based on what you are saying, Lokintas would be discriminating against Helel and be a racist. Incase you aren't aware and don't get that, Helel is slavic so calling him a filthy commie or a gopnik would be insulting him based on his heritage alone.

        Loading editor
    • ChaoZStrider wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:

      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

      It's not about changing someone's opinion.  That's a distraction from the issue.  Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party.  People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

      Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position.

      While I agree with you on both counts, I can't call it discrimination. We have Lokintas word against Helel's and in this thread the only screenshots shown by Lokintas show only what Helel said and not the full conversation. Perhaps Lokintas said something to upset and anger Helel and leaving that part out. If that is the case than it is purposefully making Helel out to be a worse person than he is. I won't call Helel transphobic or suggest he is discriminating without evidence including both sides of the story to make a full assessment.
      Dead-naming and misgendering someone is absolutely discrimination, regardless of the circumstances.  Whether or not he was discriminated against first is unclear, but neither circumstance gives him the right to discriminate in return.
      Purposefully saying something to hurt someone in a heated argument where both people in question are saying heated things is not at all what I would call discrimination. I'd call that two people insulting each other in a way they know it will effect each other. For example I hate to be called my birthname but if someone were to do it while we were arguing I'd have no grounds to claim they were discriminating against me.

      Simply put we do not know the circumstances of what was said because all we have been given is one side of the argument in those screenshots. Calling Helel transphobic without everything being in the light when it comes to what happened is just silly and poorly done. In those screenshots it shows Helel saying "Jimmy" it could have been Helel, while upset, responding to Lokintas, while also upset, using something that he knew at the time would upset him or even playing on the phrase "rustled your jimmies." We don't have the full context of the situation to make such weighty claims. I'd personally suggest we leave that well enough alone until we either get more information on what the whole discussion was or simply drop it entirely. Going around calling people racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, bigotted, or discriminatory without knowing the full situation is just a bad move.

      The question that needs to be asked is: was the dead-naming intentional?  If the answer is yes, the rest of the context is irrelevant.  There is no excuse for intentional dead-naming and this should not be tolerated.
      Given that he still has her being called "Jimmy" on his hate page shows that there is still some spite that has continued on past the argument, past the discord, and is now present on the wiki. I would call that intentional.

      The two of you are completely missing the point I had made and am trying to make so let me say this rather simply. Context matters. An argument with two people saying this out of spite and hurling insults is something entirely different from discrimination.

      For example if Lokintas was calling Helel a filthy commie or a gopnik bastard than, based on what you are saying, Lokintas would be discriminating against Helel and be a racist. Incase you aren't aware and don't get that, Helel is slavic so calling him a filthy commie or a gopnik would be insulting him based on his heritage alone.

      I completely understand that context matters.

      However, you should not be bringing your drama from a discord server to the site where you proceed to enshrine your insult on the wiki for everyone to see knowing that the user doesn't feel comfortable being called that.

        Loading editor
    • ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Llanunall wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:


      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      ChaoZStrider wrote:
      Jdeschene wrote:
      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "discrimination". Helel tolerated you on the server for many weeks despite knowing of your gender identity switch.

      If Helel does not consider you to be a girl, you cannot force him to change his mind.

      Was he calling you Jimmy before you became transgender? If not and he just started now, I suppose that could be interpreted as trying to get your goat, but he has to call you something and he may not be comfortable calling you a girl's name.

      Also, I think it would be more informative if you posted caps of the whole Discord conversation, not just Helel's parts.

      It's not about changing someone's opinion.  That's a distraction from the issue.  Discrimination should not be tolerated, regardless of the opinions of either party.  People have the right to think and believe whatever they want, but discrimination should have consequences.

      Luckily, I think this thread has headed in a positive direction and will ultimately be good for the wiki while allowing Helel to keep his admin position.

      While I agree with you on both counts, I can't call it discrimination. We have Lokintas word against Helel's and in this thread the only screenshots shown by Lokintas show only what Helel said and not the full conversation. Perhaps Lokintas said something to upset and anger Helel and leaving that part out. If that is the case than it is purposefully making Helel out to be a worse person than he is. I won't call Helel transphobic or suggest he is discriminating without evidence including both sides of the story to make a full assessment.
      Dead-naming and misgendering someone is absolutely discrimination, regardless of the circumstances.  Whether or not he was discriminated against first is unclear, but neither circumstance gives him the right to discriminate in return.
      Purposefully saying something to hurt someone in a heated argument where both people in question are saying heated things is not at all what I would call discrimination. I'd call that two people insulting each other in a way they know it will effect each other. For example I hate to be called my birthname but if someone were to do it while we were arguing I'd have no grounds to claim they were discriminating against me.

      Simply put we do not know the circumstances of what was said because all we have been given is one side of the argument in those screenshots. Calling Helel transphobic without everything being in the light when it comes to what happened is just silly and poorly done. In those screenshots it shows Helel saying "Jimmy" it could have been Helel, while upset, responding to Lokintas, while also upset, using something that he knew at the time would upset him or even playing on the phrase "rustled your jimmies." We don't have the full context of the situation to make such weighty claims. I'd personally suggest we leave that well enough alone until we either get more information on what the whole discussion was or simply drop it entirely. Going around calling people racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, bigotted, or discriminatory without knowing the full situation is just a bad move.

      The question that needs to be asked is: was the dead-naming intentional?  If the answer is yes, the rest of the context is irrelevant.  There is no excuse for intentional dead-naming and this should not be tolerated.
      Given that he still has her being called "Jimmy" on his hate page shows that there is still some spite that has continued on past the argument, past the discord, and is now present on the wiki. I would call that intentional.
      The two of you are completely missing the point I had made and am trying to make so let me say this rather simply. Context matters. An argument with two people saying this out of spite and hurling insults is something entirely different from discrimination.

      For example if Lokintas was calling Helel a filthy commie or a gopnik bastard than, based on what you are saying, Lokintas would be discriminating against Helel and be a racist. Incase you aren't aware and don't get that, Helel is slavic so calling him a filthy commie or a gopnik would be insulting him based on his heritage alone.

      Correct, and that would be ten million kinds of wrong and shouldn't be tolerated either, but it doesn't give him the right to discriminate in return.  In that respect, no, context doesn't matter.

        Loading editor
    • The last I am going to talk on the matter of this supposed discrimination until we have the full context for what happened regarding it with evidence to support it.

      JDeschene, I disagree. Context matters. We do not have the full context, we can not make a full assessment of the situation. Calling Helel transphobic or discriminatory without the full context is just irresponsible. I'd say you should be ashamed of doing so but your opinion of how much context matters is clearly different from mine so that wouldn't amount to anything. I hope you come to realize the importance of context in the future.

      Llanunall, I am of the opinion things like "the salt mines" and "wall of hate" shouldn't exist on the wiki in the first place. Lokintas and Helel both should have kept this matter off wiki and came to a conclusion off wiki. By reaching out and continuing the discussion on the wiki while both people were possibly still upset and tender about the situation Lokintas allowed it to devolve further. Instead Lokintas should have given Helel his space and then tried to PM Helel at a later time for the two of them to discuss things civilly.

      "The salt mines" and "walls of hate" go entirely against the way admins are supposed to act and set a bad tone for when it comes to contacting them. I've made that opinion clear in the past.

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    • ChaoZStrider wrote:
      The last I am going to talk on the matter of this supposed discrimination until we have the full context for what happened regarding it with evidence to support it.

      JDeschene, I disagree. Context matters. We do not have the full context, we can not make a full assessment of the situation. Calling Helel transphobic or discriminatory without the full context is just irresponsible. I'd say you should be ashamed of doing so but your opinion of how much context matters is clearly different from mine so that wouldn't amount to anything. I hope you come to realize the importance of context in the future.

      Llanunall, I am of the opinion things like "the salt mines" and "wall of hate" shouldn't exist on the wiki in the first place. Lokintas and Helel both should have kept this matter off wiki and came to a conclusion off wiki. By reaching out and continuing the discussion on the wiki while both people were possibly still upset and tender about the situation Lokintas allowed it to devolve further. Instead Lokintas should have given Helel his space and then tried to PM Helel at a later time for the two of them to discuss things civilly.

      "The salt mines" and "walls of hate" go entirely against the way admins are supposed to act and set a bad tone for when it comes to contacting them. I've made that opinion clear in the past.

      I have never called Helel transphobic.  I think there's evidence that he made a bad and discriminatory decision.  Does that make him a bad person?  No, not necessarily.  Good people can make discriminatory and hurtful mistakes.  I have only ever been talking about Helel's behavior throughout my responses to this thread, not who he is as a person.  I don't want to label Helel in a negative way.  I'm capable of seeing a separation between the person and the behavior.

      Nor have I suggested that one kind of discrimination is worse than another.  If it turns out that both Lokintas and Helel have discriminated against each other, that should be dealt with accordingly.  If, somehow, it turns out that Lokintas was the sole discriminator, that should be dealth with accordingly.  The danger of placing too much importance on context is that it sends the message that discrimination is totally acceptable under certain circumstances, and I'm not okay with that, personally.

      I also want to make clear, in case I haven't, that I don't consider anything Helel is accused of to be unforgivable.  Also, knowing he's been spoken to and, as far as you've said, plans to change his approach to others on the wiki has inspired me to change my vote.  I hope this message serves to clarify my position.

      Oppose Oppose -

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    • Oppose Oppose - I can agree that Helel can come off as brash in some of his statements, but overall I believe the actions conducted should not warrant a demotion. Should there be consequences? Yes. However, there are other ways to execute said consequences. You could:

      1) Suspend his admin rights for month or so (or for whatever length determined).

      (AND/OR)

      2) Ensure the administrator team have a formal closed conversation.

      (AND/OR)

      3) Maybe even have a formal apology issued by him with actions listed that be taken to rectify future actions.

      (AND/OR)

      4) Etc..

      I would like to note that despite listing these offenses, what actions have you taken aside from confronting him about the use of your name? In most cases, which you at least did for that particular case, you should directly confront him. If that doesn't work, then you take your case to the next member of the staff of equal value or more. It's the same in the workforce: you have a problem with your co-worker, talk to your manager. If the problem is your manager, talk to his manager, and so on, and somebody will take action.

      My point is, if you had a problem with the actions/words by said admin, why did you wait until now to address it? I'm positive if you mentioned this to another admin or even Cleric they would've nipped it in the bud awhile back. Instead you decided to collect it, then make an announcement. Half the things you listed more than likely would not be present had you brought your concerns forward sooner.

      Now, I'm not condoning his actions, but if what a person is doing isn't brought up, then more than likely the person is going to assume no one has a problem with it, and the actions will continue. Let's say you spoke to Cleric and he issued Helel a formal warning or two, and he still didn't listen, then, yes, reprimand his rights. However, this comes off as a first time offence as a whole because the issues were never addressed. I think actions should be taken but not to the degree of a demotion.

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    • Support Support - There are other, better admins out there, and Helel's "brashness" being excused is, imo, counterproductive. I supposed you could argue he is an 'aquired taste', which is absolutely fine in principle, but not for an admin. Admins should be friendly to everyone not just people they like.

      Creating an ecosystem of kinder, welcoming admins would be beneficial in the long run.

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    • Oppose Oppose - Helel is immature and doesn't yet know how to conduct himself in a manner that's appropriate for an admin. The fact that he refers to himself as Empy's "spiritual successor" makes me want to vomit. He's not even one-tenth of the admin that Empy was. Yet here I am opposing the demotion - mostly because I know how much time he puts into this site, and he does a decent job keeping the place cleaned up. Helel, I hope you take this thread as the wake-up call it should be. Even the people supporting you nearly all have at least one negative thing to say about you. I believe in second chances, and I know you have tremendous potential, if only you can act a little more grown up. Good luck, Mr. Administrator.

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    • So I’ve been thinking about this for a while now and I feel that I haven’t got anything to say that hasn't already been said. I try my very best to stay the hell away from any drama and for the most part I’m totally ignorant of anything to do with Slimebeast or conventions. Slimebeast remains my favourite creepypasta author of all time, and I’m deathly afraid of flying so the convention was a write-off for me since day-one unless all you guys wanna have it in the hotel down the road from my house (it’s a lovely place, but maybe a bit out of the way for some of you). Also it’s very wet in Wales, although admittedly not for the last few weeks where we seem to have accidentally ticked the box reading “Afghanistan” for our weather.

      Anyway, I’m babbling. Because I’m tired and I don’t want to start work-proper. TFI Friday right?

      I can’t and won’t speak for other admins but I’d like to say that I’m committed to hearing out people’s concerns and trying to address them. From what I understand the worries largely focus on Hel’s professionalism and I’m confident in Dupin’s ability to speak to Hel and I’d like to give Hel a chance to improve on these issues.

      There are times I’ve dipped below the line of professionalism regarding this wikia. I consider myself a volunteer, and I value my position and I never want anyone to feel as though I’m a petty bureaucrat taking advantage of a small iota of power. Rather, I just like to feel like I’m helping a community full of people with similar interests to me. I’ve dealt with admins who have “bouncer” syndrome before and it left a bitter taste in my mouth. I don’t want to do that. Although I’m sure there are times I could have held myself to a higher standard.

      I suppose what I’m trying to say is, this isn’t a sub-reddit. And I hope no one walks away thinking that we treat it like our own personal fiefdom. We're taking this seriously, and I hope that we can all put this behind us soon.

      On an unrelated note, if anyone has accidentally pressed a switch somewhere that reads "set the fucking Earth on fire" can you do me a favour and put it back to where it was?

      I'm very uncomfortable. 

      Oppose Oppose -

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    • Neutral Neutral -

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    • Support Support -

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    • Gomez Capulet wrote: Support Support -

      You have to give a reason why you support.

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    • So, I have discussed this with Helel and I believe a new page is turned. Helel understood clearly that he was wrong in his behavior and will be more careful in the future. I trust completely that he will really become a shining example of users of this wiki.

      Since though Emp has mentioned Helel's admin app, I want to touch on this subject too. Both me and Banning, when reviewing his application, voiced our concerns about Helel's behavior, as correctly pointed out by Emp.

      But this sword cuts both ways. Sure, we did warn Helel about his behavior, but what did we, as admins, do about it? Nothing. Helel received no feedback on his behavior, so he had no real chance of adjusting. The blame, thus, falls not only on Helel's shoulders, but the shoulders of the rest of admins as well.

      It has been a very busy year for me and the other admins, and Helel was pretty much the only one who was carrying the wiki, with Christian taking a load off whenever he could. This demotion thread is unfair to our currently most active admin, who was let down by his fellow teammates.

      From this point on, we will all make a concerted effort to keep ourselves in check. That is the way forward.

      As users, you have to understand though that admins are not omnipotent. We don't know of everything that is going on in the wiki and every time you see someone step over the line, you must contact an administrator to have this looked at. Pointing fingers when the glass overfills helps nobody.

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    • MrDupin wrote: So, I have discussed this with Helel and I believe a new page is turned. Helel understood clearly that he was wrong in his behavior and will be more careful in the future. I trust completely that he will really become a shining example of users of this wiki.

      Since though Emp has mentioned Helel's admin app, I want to touch on this subject too. Both me and Banning, when reviewing his application, voiced our concerns about Helel's behavior, as correctly pointed out by Emp.

      But this sword cuts both ways. Sure, we did warn Helel about his behavior, but what did we, as admins, do about it? Nothing. Helel received no feedback on his behavior, so he had no real chance of adjusting. The blame, thus, falls not only on Helel's shoulders, but the shoulders of the rest of admins as well.

      It has been a very busy year for me and the other admins, and Helel was pretty much the only one who was carrying the wiki, with Christian taking a load off whenever he could. This demotion thread is unfair to our currently most active admin, who was let down by his fellow teammates.

      From this point on, we will all make a concerted effort to keep ourselves in check. That is the way forward.

      As users, you have to understand though that admins are not omnipotent. We don't know of everything that is going on in the wiki and every time you see someone step over the line, you must contact an administrator to have this looked at. Pointing fingers when the glass overfills helps nobody.

      It is reassuring that you, in a private conversation, allege to have talked this situation out. However, this doesn't retrospectively change his actions. Thus far he hasn't moved to make any amends for his wrong doings nor remedy them.

      I don't think the community wants an assurance that it "won't happen again", we, or at least I, want some form of action on his part to demonstrate his understanding of what he did wrong and why it was wrong.

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    • Llanunall wrote: It is reassuring that you, in a private conversation, allege to have talked this situation out. However, this doesn't retrospectively change his actions. Thus far he hasn't moved to make any amends for his wrong doings nor remedy them.

      I don't think the community wants an assurance that it "won't happen again", we, or at least I, want some form of action on his part to demonstrate his understanding of what he did wrong and why it was wrong.

      What action would satisfy you?

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    • MrDupin wrote:

      Llanunall wrote: It is reassuring that you, in a private conversation, allege to have talked this situation out. However, this doesn't retrospectively change his actions. Thus far he hasn't moved to make any amends for his wrong doings nor remedy them.

      I don't think the community wants an assurance that it "won't happen again", we, or at least I, want some form of action on his part to demonstrate his understanding of what he did wrong and why it was wrong.

      What action would satisfy you?

      Currently in this thread we have talked about these walls of hate and it seems that the consensus is that they don't belong on an admins page. So like, if he could not have one that would probably be great.

      Furthermore, actually hash things out like an adult with Lokintas and stop using their birth-identity as ammunition against them. If a user really get to you on a discord do the adult thing and remove them, not throw around insults and drag it onto the wiki. I don't even expect him to sit there and flat out appologize, just admit it was a wrong thing to do in the edit summary or something.

      Lastly, go forward and be polite and stewardly when talking to users. Recognize that you attitude isn't conductive and change it, like, right away.

      People do things they shouldn't, you have to acknowledge that and do better, especially if you are an admin.

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    • Llanunall wrote:

      Currently in this thread we have talked about these walls of hate and it seems that the consensus is that they don't belong on an admins page. So like, if he could not have one that would probably be great.

      If he wants to remove the salt pages thing, he can go ahead and do that. I don't see it as a huge issue, but he does have to be more careful about what he puts on there. If it's full on salt (and thus may deter others from acting the same way), sure, but he should not be trigger-happy about what goes there.

      Furthermore, actually hash things out like an adult with Lokintas and stop using their birth-identity as ammunition against them. If a user really get to you on a discord do the adult thing and remove them, not throw around insults and drag it onto the wiki. I don't even expect him to sit there and flat out appologize, just admit it was a wrong thing to do in the edit summary or something.

      About the Lokintas situation, since we have no full context of the conversation, we can't ask him to do anything. He has reassured me though that he will not make such insults again. Also, from what I understand, Lokintas was actually kicked from Discord (I think temporarily, not sure how Discord works), hoping the situation would end there. I will not ask him to do anything for this either, unless more evidence surfaces about the whole context of the insults.

      If both of them are up for it, they can hash it out. But this does not fall only on Helel's shoulders.

      Lastly, go forward and be polite and stewardly when talking to users. Recognize that you attitude isn't conductive and change it, like, right away.

      People do things they shouldn't, you have to acknowledge that and do better, especially if you are an admin.

      As I said, I am confident he will be more careful when interacting with others. He reassured me and I believe him.

      All in all, these are not actions that should be imposed on Helel. This is not a playground and we do not enforce petty punishment. If he wants to make a comment, he is free to do so. He is also free to not do so.

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    • MrDupin wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      Currently in this thread we have talked about these walls of hate and it seems that the consensus is that they don't belong on an admins page. So like, if he could not have one that would probably be great.

      If he wants to remove the salt pages thing, he can go ahead and do that. I don't see it as a huge issue, but he does have to be more careful about what he puts on there. If it's full on salt (and thus may deter others from acting the same way), sure, but he should not be trigger-happy about what goes there.

      Furthermore, actually hash things out like an adult with Lokintas and stop using their birth-identity as ammunition against them. If a user really get to you on a discord do the adult thing and remove them, not throw around insults and drag it onto the wiki. I don't even expect him to sit there and flat out appologize, just admit it was a wrong thing to do in the edit summary or something.

      About the Lokintas situation, since we have no full context of the conversation, we can't ask him to do anything. He has reassured me though that he will not make such insults again. Also, from what I understand, Lokintas was actually kicked from Discord (I think temporarily, not sure how Discord works), hoping the situation would end there. I will not ask him to do anything for this either, unless more evidence surfaces about the whole context of the insults.

      If both of them are up for it, they can hash it out. But this does not fall only on Helel's shoulders.

      Lastly, go forward and be polite and stewardly when talking to users. Recognize that you attitude isn't conductive and change it, like, right away.

      People do things they shouldn't, you have to acknowledge that and do better, especially if you are an admin.

      As I said, I am confident he will be more careful when interacting with others. He reassured me and I believe him.

      All in all, these are not actions that should be imposed on Helel. This is not a playground and we do not enforce petty punishment. If he wants to make a comment, he is free to do so. He is also free to not do so.

      If you want to go ahead and write off constructive things he could do as mere petty playground punishment then you are free to do so. In the meantime, I still hold the position that, unless he actually starts to make changes, that he still should not hold the rank of Administrator.

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    • Llanunall wrote:

      If you want to go ahead and write off constructive things he could do as mere petty playground punishment then you are free to do so. In the meantime, I still hold the position that, unless he actually starts to make changes, that he still should not hold the rank of Administrator.

      Helel is free to do what he wants, we will not impose anything on him. We have already discussed the situation with him. Having a talk with me is enough punishment.

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    • Having a talk with me is enough punishment.

      Can confirm. I spoke to Dupin once and still can't see the colour blue.

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    • MrDupin wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      If you want to go ahead and write off constructive things he could do as mere petty playground punishment then you are free to do so. In the meantime, I still hold the position that, unless he actually starts to make changes, that he still should not hold the rank of Administrator.

      Helel is free to do what he wants, we will not impose anything on him. We have already discussed the situation with him. Having a talk with me is enough punishment.

      I'm not seeking punitive action. I want something that shows a change of heart and tact for the better. The things I listed are things he can do to show that he, of his own volition, wants to make a positive change for the better.

      We shouldn't be punishing, rather work to reform his behavior.

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    • ChristianWallis wrote:

      Having a talk with me is enough punishment.

      Can confirm. I spoke to Dupin once and still can't see the colour blue.

      I once got a lecture for Dupin and I still can't remember what it's like to feel the sun on my skin or how refreshing it is to have a cold drink on a hot day.

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    • EmpyrealInvective wrote:

      ChristianWallis wrote:

      Having a talk with me is enough punishment.

      Can confirm. I spoke to Dupin once and still can't see the colour blue.

      I once got a lecture for Dupin and I still can't remember what it's like to feel the sun on my skin or how refreshing it is to have a cold drink on a hot day.

      I thought you guys loved my talks on the floral patterns of rural Mississippi... This comes totally out of the blue.

      Speaking of blue, did you know that there are some blue flowers shaped like a bell? Hit me up and we will discuss this.

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    • MrDupin wrote:

      EmpyrealInvective wrote:

      ChristianWallis wrote:

      Having a talk with me is enough punishment.

      Can confirm. I spoke to Dupin once and still can't see the colour blue.

      I once got a lecture for Dupin and I still can't remember what it's like to feel the sun on my skin or how refreshing it is to have a cold drink on a hot day.

      I thought you guys loved my talks on the floral patterns of rural Mississippi... This comes totally out of the blue.

      Speaking of blue, did you know that there are some blue flowers shaped like a bell? Hit me up and we will discuss this.

      Peeks in thread and overhears Dupin

      Oh dear lord, I seem to have come back to the wiki at a bad time.

      uninstalls internet

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    • Could we please keep the thread serious and on-topic?

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    • Doom Vroom wrote:

      MrDupin wrote:

      EmpyrealInvective wrote:

      ChristianWallis wrote:

      Having a talk with me is enough punishment.

      Can confirm. I spoke to Dupin once and still can't see the colour blue.
      I once got a lecture for Dupin and I still can't remember what it's like to feel the sun on my skin or how refreshing it is to have a cold drink on a hot day.

      I thought you guys loved my talks on the floral patterns of rural Mississippi... This comes totally out of the blue.

      Speaking of blue, did you know that there are some blue flowers shaped like a bell? Hit me up and we will discuss this.

      Peeks in thread and overhears Dupin

      Oh dear lord, I seem to have come back to the wiki at a bad time.

      uninstalls internet

      Happy as I am that this seems to have reached a mostly satisfactory conclusion, I do feel like it's in bad taste to start making jokes.  Sorry to be the rain on the parade.

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    • It was just a short and silly diversion, don't worry.

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    • I am very good at raining.

      I think the consensus is that:

      • Helel ben Shahaar should be (no offense) less like Resdraon for the reason that he scares and offends people sometimes.
        • He is an integral member of this site, and if he were to be demoted, he would just be repromoted anyways because of this.
        • His abrasiveness and bold sense of humor and general speech have rubbed some people the wrong way.
      • This post should not exist because it's a turd of unaired complaints.
        • If Helel had been told about this previously, then he could have stopped or fixed his actions. Making this kind of thread takes away his agency to some extent.
        • Squirreling criticism so you can make a giant critique ball is inferior to talking to multiple admins about a problem.
      • Walls of hate are bad because they might accidentally house actual criticism or questions.

      I'm sorry for saying "turd" and if I am wrong.

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    • I think it’s important to stop things from becoming too serious.

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    • Should a posted blog be written as a code of conduct for staff members like administrators? I imagine that a lot could be lifted from an employee handbook for about any company. Just do a replace of "IBM" for Creepypasta, etc.

      This really should be pretty much the same code for regular members.

      I think we should also clarify a couple of "grey" areas.

      • Off site behavior
      • Private handling of complaints to the Admins?
      • Internal to the whole Admin team handling of complaints

      I think there should be a path to resolve interpersonal disputes that doesn't go site wide and that path should be followed first. That's normal. If someone at work makes remarks that offens your race, religion, national origin, politics, etc. You go to them first one on one and tell them to lay off or you will go to HR. If it repeats, you confidentially go to HR and formally complain. Only if HR blows you off do you sue, go public, etc. I think it should be the same code of conduct here.

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    • On to the subject at hand, I get the vibe that things have more or less been decided on the matter and there is now a list of things for Helel to look through and use to better himself as an admin, that's fine. However, I'd like to attempt to throw whatever weight I may have on to one thing that has already been suggested...

      I think the "hate wall" should go. I appreciate the "salt mine" page on Empyre's page, I really do, and I can even appreciate the attempt to replicate it, but I think the result just leaves us all open for unnecessary misunderstandings/avoidable conflict and that's counter-intuitive to the station of administrator.

      I feel that I don't have anything else to say that hasn't been said enough already on this page so I shall end it at that.

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    • DrBobSmith wrote: Should a posted blog be written as a code of conduct for staff members like administrators? I imagine that a lot could be lifted from an employee handbook for about any company. Just do a replace of "IBM" for Creepypasta, etc.

      This really should be pretty much the same code for regular members.

      I think we should also clarify a couple of "grey" areas.

      • Off site behavior
      • Private handling of complaints to the Admins?
      • Internal to the whole Admin team handling of complaints

      I think there should be a path to resolve interpersonal disputes that doesn't go site wide and that path should be followed first. That's normal. If someone at work makes remarks that offens your race, religion, national origin, politics, etc. You go to them first one on one and tell them to lay off or you will go to HR. If it repeats, you confidentially go to HR and formally complain. Only if HR blows you off do you sue, go public, etc. I think it should be the same code of conduct here.

      One thing I would be concerned about with that is the lack of transparency. I don't think things should be handled in as public a way as a forum but some level of disclosure should happen.

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    • Llanunall wrote:

      One thing I would be concerned about with that is the lack of transparency. I don't think things should be handled in as public a way as a forum but some level of disclosure should happen.

      Transparency vs privacy for the accused. If the information is released beyond the Administration staff then the accused is tried in the courts of public opinion. Not only that but the accuser's privacy must be preserved. I wouldn't want the whole organization to know what I had to go up the line that I was being made uncomfortable about. It was a private matter that didn't concern work but being heckled over it was really upsetting me.

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    • Squidmanescape wrote:

        • He is an integral member of this site, and if he were to be demoted, he would just be repromoted anyways because of this.

      Hi~ Long time no see! I don't want to come across as rude to you and I apologize if I do, but this point is totally incorrect. While the site isn't exactly lining up with applicants for the administrator position, administrator status is carefully given.

      I grant you that there are some hiccups in administrators that we get now and then, but the criteria for one being chosen is their understanding of how to best utilize the wiki's tools, use grammar correctly, and the ability to properly handle community related situations. It's not a position given by popularity or the number of years spent on the wiki - and if it ever is then the community has failed as a majority for electing someone based on those reasons.

      So if we have someone that gets demoted for whatever reasons and who reapplies on down the line (which has happened in the past) they aren't guaranteed to be reinstated (which again, I've watched happen in the past).

      Sorry again if I came across as rude, but I felt that this needed addressing.

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    • McRiley
      McRiley removed this reply because:
      Removing this reply since it wasn't quite important
      18:41, August 3, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • DrBobSmith wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      One thing I would be concerned about with that is the lack of transparency. I don't think things should be handled in as public a way as a forum but some level of disclosure should happen.

      Transparency vs privacy for the accused. If the information is released beyond the Administration staff then the accused is tried in the courts of public opinion. Not only that but the accuser's privacy must be preserved. I wouldn't want the whole organization to know what I had to go up the line that I was being made uncomfortable about. It was a private matter that didn't concern work but being heckled over it was really upsetting me.

      There is a need to protect both the accused and the accuser until such a point that the status of the accusations can be determined. If an admin was being accused of harassing other users for whatever reason and in the end it turns out that yes, he was, then there needs to be some form of public acknowledgement the incident. Furthermore, there needs to be, on some level, a way to acknowledge and show that some form of action has been taken as a result.

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    • McRiley wrote: What are we talking about?

      Right now we are talking about the need for transparency when it comes to admins and how they handle issues.

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    • Llanunall wrote:

      McRiley wrote: What are we talking about?

      Right now we are talking about the need for transparency when it comes to admins and how they handle issues.

      Sounds like the Government and/or Corruption.

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    • McRiley wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      McRiley wrote: What are we talking about?

      Right now we are talking about the need for transparency when it comes to admins and how they handle issues.

      Sounds like the Government and/or Corruption.

      It is not that the site administration is corrupt in any way.

      Just, I think it would be nice to have some sort of clear lines of dialogue between the users and the admins that doesn't involve creating threads and incurring the wrath of everyone before the facts can be determined. Likewise, it would be nice if the results of arbitration could also be made clear so that rumors and additional conflict could be averted.

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    • Llanunall wrote:

      McRiley wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      McRiley wrote: What are we talking about?

      Right now we are talking about the need for transparency when it comes to admins and how they handle issues.
      Sounds like the Government and/or Corruption.
      It is not that the site administration is corrupt in any way.

      Just, I think it would be nice to have some sort of clear lines of dialogue between the users and the admins that doesn't involve creating threads and incurring the wrath of everyone before the facts can be determined. Likewise, it would be nice if the results of arbitration could also be made clear so that rumors and additional conflict could be averted.

      k yhen

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    • I threw my hat in the ring a while back, before everything was decided, but I feel that this is worth saying.

      Regarding transparency, I am of the opinion that if the issue can be settled between the accused and the accuser, it should be. Failing that, the issue should be resolved between the accused, the accuser, and the mediator, in this case a higher admin. Failing that, there should be some form of repercussion, preferably in the form of an apology, a discussion of punishment, or a change in demeanor for further down the line.

      But that's not really what happened here. What happened was that a number of issues went unresolved and a user that was upset with Helel put forth a case. Simply put, it should not have gotten this far, and it's a failing on the part of multiple parties. Now, most of those issues have been addressed, and it's clear that something needs to be done moving forward.

      As I understand it, Helel has already been spoken to regarding his future behavior, but this isn't where the issue stops. As a community, we need to hold ourselves to a certain standard of conduct. If you have a problem, be it with a person or an action or a piece of content, address one of the admins. If it is decided that the issue doesn't warrant a change, then let it be and continue on with your life. Simple. Displays like this are just the result of too many unvoiced concerns, and we should be adult enough to not have things like this.

        Loading editor
    • TheWizardOfTheWoods wrote:
      I threw my hat in the ring a while back, before everything was decided, but I feel that this is worth saying.

      Regarding transparency, I am of the opinion that if the issue can be settled between the accused and the accuser, it should be. Failing that, the issue should be resolved between the accused, the accuser, and the mediator, in this case a higher admin. Failing that, there should be some form of repercussion, preferably in the form of an apology, a discussion of punishment, or a change in demeanor for further down the line.

      But that's not really what happened here. What happened was that a number of issues went unresolved and a user that was upset with Helel put forth a case. Simply put, it should not have gotten this far, and it's a failing on the part of multiple parties. Now, most of those issues have been addressed, and it's clear that something needs to be done moving forward.

      As I understand it, Helel has already been spoken to regarding his future behavior, but this isn't where the issue stops. As a community, we need to hold ourselves to a certain standard of conduct. If you have a problem, be it with a person or an action or a piece of content, address one of the admins. If it is decided that the issue doesn't warrant a change, then let it be and continue on with your life. Simple. Displays like this are just the result of too many unvoiced concerns, and we should be adult enough to not have things like this.

      The admins need to make it clear that we can voice concerns like this without fear of retaliation, which is not clear when an admin behaves badly.

        Loading editor
    • Jdeschene wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'll set aside the "dead naming" thing for now (already mentioned it in previous post I just made), but if you consider "misgendering" to be an offense that should be against the rules, what you are basically implying is that a person should not be allowed to refer to a transgender person unless that person is willing to acknowledge the other's identity switch. If you don't believe in transgender identity to begin with, that basically means you are not allowed to refer to that person at all, which is a form of trying to force them to change their opinions.

      Maybe he shouldn't.  You have no say in what another person's identity is. You have the right not to acknowledge whatever you want, but  the other person also has the right not to associate you if you don't accept their reality.  It comes down to common courtesy.  If someone says they identify a certain way, you're not in a position to tell them they don't.  

      I have no intention of telling someone they don't identify a certain way, nor of forcing anyone to associate with me. That said, they can't force me, Helel, or anyone else to comply with their new identity, all they can do is ask someone not to speak to them anymore, which is a request I would honor, but it still woudln't have any bearing on my right to speak about him or her in third person when they aren't around.

      A person on this wiki is free to live according to "their reality", but they can't impose "their reality" on others as reality itself.

        Loading editor
    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'll set aside the "dead naming" thing for now (already mentioned it in previous post I just made), but if you consider "misgendering" to be an offense that should be against the rules, what you are basically implying is that a person should not be allowed to refer to a transgender person unless that person is willing to acknowledge the other's identity switch. If you don't believe in transgender identity to begin with, that basically means you are not allowed to refer to that person at all, which is a form of trying to force them to change their opinions.
      Maybe he shouldn't.  You have no say in what another person's identity is. You have the right not to acknowledge whatever you want, but  the other person also has the right not to associate you if you don't accept their reality.  It comes down to common courtesy.  If someone says they identify a certain way, you're not in a position to tell them they don't.  

      I have no intention of telling someone they don't identify a certain way, nor of forcing anyone to associate with me. That said, they can't force me, Helel, or anyone else to comply with their new identity, all they can do is ask someone not to speak to them anymore, which is a request I would honor, but it still woudln't have any bearing on my right to speak about him or her in third person when they aren't around.

      A person on this wiki is free to live according to "their reality", but they can't impose "their reality" on others as reality itself.

      But they and anyone else who accepts their reality have the right to correct you or refuse to associate you if you continue to intentionally get it wrong.  There is literally no reason other than spite and pettiness for you not to adapt to how someone views themselves.  It's not for you to decide who anyone is but yourself.

        Loading editor
    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'll set aside the "dead naming" thing for now (already mentioned it in previous post I just made), but if you consider "misgendering" to be an offense that should be against the rules, what you are basically implying is that a person should not be allowed to refer to a transgender person unless that person is willing to acknowledge the other's identity switch. If you don't believe in transgender identity to begin with, that basically means you are not allowed to refer to that person at all, which is a form of trying to force them to change their opinions.
      Maybe he shouldn't.  You have no say in what another person's identity is. You have the right not to acknowledge whatever you want, but  the other person also has the right not to associate you if you don't accept their reality.  It comes down to common courtesy.  If someone says they identify a certain way, you're not in a position to tell them they don't.  

      I have no intention of telling someone they don't identify a certain way, nor of forcing anyone to associate with me. That said, they can't force me, Helel, or anyone else to comply with their new identity, all they can do is ask someone not to speak to them anymore, which is a request I would honor, but it still woudln't have any bearing on my right to speak about him or her in third person when they aren't around.

      A person on this wiki is free to live according to "their reality", but they can't impose "their reality" on others as reality itself.

      It's also not a "new identity."  It's someone beginning to own and accept themselves for who they've always been.  That's why it's called "dead-naming."  That's why the associated surgeries are called "gender alignment" instead of the incorrect "sex change."  There's a lot you need to learn.

        Loading editor
    • Support Support -

      Because you knew I'd find out about this, I guess.

      I don't know him, and I don't care what he says/does - if he "raids", he just gets smacked back like anyone else who's tried it.

      HOWEVER -- He literally replied to Cava and Kellum discussing killing me by telling me Kellum could kill me if he wanted to - but just doesn't want to. He's also proceeded to blame me for your moderators' actions, including his own, because I'm some boogieman subhuman to him. You don't need someone who makes problems worse like that.

      Edit: In fact a few of you here seem to think it's neato to post random jabs in my direction. It's silly how much you want to inject that stuff.

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    • Slimebeast wrote: Support Support -

      Because you knew I'd find out about this, I guess.

      I don't know him, and I don't care what he says/does - if he "raids", he just gets smacked back like anyone else who's tried it.

      HOWEVER -- He literally replied to Cava and Kellum discussing killing me by telling me Kellum could kill me if he wanted to - but just doesn't want to. He's also proceeded to blame me for your moderators' actions, including his own, because I'm some boogieman subhuman to him. You don't need someone who makes problems worse like that.

      So someone who left the wiki and does not know what goes on here, nor knows the admin in question and what they do, votes? Because his opinion of you is bad, and he may or may not have ordered a raid on you (questionable)

      Interesting

      Edit: Not invalidating your vote. This just seems to have come out of nowhere.

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    • Icydice wrote:

      Slimebeast wrote: Support Support -

      Because you knew I'd find out about this, I guess.

      I don't know him, and I don't care what he says/does - if he "raids", he just gets smacked back like anyone else who's tried it.

      HOWEVER -- He literally replied to Cava and Kellum discussing killing me by telling me Kellum could kill me if he wanted to - but just doesn't want to. He's also proceeded to blame me for your moderators' actions, including his own, because I'm some boogieman subhuman to him. You don't need someone who makes problems worse like that.

      So someone who left the wiki and does not know what goes on here, nor knows the admin in question and what they do, votes? Because his opinion of you is bad, and he may or may not have ordered a raid on you (questionable)

      Interesting

      Slimebeast is known to do a lot of lurking on this wiki. He knows more about us all than you think.

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    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Icydice wrote:

      Slimebeast wrote: Support Support -

      Because you knew I'd find out about this, I guess.

      I don't know him, and I don't care what he says/does - if he "raids", he just gets smacked back like anyone else who's tried it.

      HOWEVER -- He literally replied to Cava and Kellum discussing killing me by telling me Kellum could kill me if he wanted to - but just doesn't want to. He's also proceeded to blame me for your moderators' actions, including his own, because I'm some boogieman subhuman to him. You don't need someone who makes problems worse like that.

      So someone who left the wiki and does not know what goes on here, nor knows the admin in question and what they do, votes? Because his opinion of you is bad, and he may or may not have ordered a raid on you (questionable)

      Interesting

      Slimebeast is known to do a lot of lurking on this wiki. He knows more about us all than you think.

      Gotcha

      Anyways, from an unbiased pov, I choose to Oppose Oppose -.

      Sure Helel has his moments of unproffesionalism. We all do. But this does not imo deserve a demotion. Action should be taken, but to demote someone for several spread out instances of what can be seen as rudeness depending on perspective is not gonna solve anything, escpecially considering this is our most prominent admin.

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    • Jdeschene wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'll set aside the "dead naming" thing for now (already mentioned it in previous post I just made), but if you consider "misgendering" to be an offense that should be against the rules, what you are basically implying is that a person should not be allowed to refer to a transgender person unless that person is willing to acknowledge the other's identity switch. If you don't believe in transgender identity to begin with, that basically means you are not allowed to refer to that person at all, which is a form of trying to force them to change their opinions.
      Maybe he shouldn't.  You have no say in what another person's identity is. You have the right not to acknowledge whatever you want, but  the other person also has the right not to associate you if you don't accept their reality.  It comes down to common courtesy.  If someone says they identify a certain way, you're not in a position to tell them they don't.  

      I have no intention of telling someone they don't identify a certain way, nor of forcing anyone to associate with me. That said, they can't force me, Helel, or anyone else to comply with their new identity, all they can do is ask someone not to speak to them anymore, which is a request I would honor, but it still woudln't have any bearing on my right to speak about him or her in third person when they aren't around.

      A person on this wiki is free to live according to "their reality", but they can't impose "their reality" on others as reality itself.

      It's also not a "new identity."  It's someone beginning to own and accept themselves for who they've always been.  That's why it's called "dead-naming."  That's why the associated surgeries are called "gender alignment" instead of the incorrect "sex change."  There's a lot you need to learn.

      Changes account for the third time.

      Changes name.

      Declares previous name "dead".

      That's a new identity.

        Loading editor
    • Jdeschene wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'll set aside the "dead naming" thing for now (already mentioned it in previous post I just made), but if you consider "misgendering" to be an offense that should be against the rules, what you are basically implying is that a person should not be allowed to refer to a transgender person unless that person is willing to acknowledge the other's identity switch. If you don't believe in transgender identity to begin with, that basically means you are not allowed to refer to that person at all, which is a form of trying to force them to change their opinions.
      Maybe he shouldn't.  You have no say in what another person's identity is. You have the right not to acknowledge whatever you want, but  the other person also has the right not to associate you if you don't accept their reality.  It comes down to common courtesy.  If someone says they identify a certain way, you're not in a position to tell them they don't.  

      I have no intention of telling someone they don't identify a certain way, nor of forcing anyone to associate with me. That said, they can't force me, Helel, or anyone else to comply with their new identity, all they can do is ask someone not to speak to them anymore, which is a request I would honor, but it still woudln't have any bearing on my right to speak about him or her in third person when they aren't around.

      A person on this wiki is free to live according to "their reality", but they can't impose "their reality" on others as reality itself.

      But they and anyone else who accepts their reality have the right to correct you or refuse to associate you if you continue to intentionally get it wrong.  There is literally no reason other than spite and pettiness for you not to adapt to how someone views themselves.  It's not for you to decide who anyone is but yourself.

      They are free to "correct" and refuse to associate with me all they want. What they are not free to do is attempt to impose their views on me through disciplinary actions.

      When it comes to a transgender individual, people are free to accept "their reality", but I am still free to accept actual reality.

        Loading editor
    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:


      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'll set aside the "dead naming" thing for now (already mentioned it in previous post I just made), but if you consider "misgendering" to be an offense that should be against the rules, what you are basically implying is that a person should not be allowed to refer to a transgender person unless that person is willing to acknowledge the other's identity switch. If you don't believe in transgender identity to begin with, that basically means you are not allowed to refer to that person at all, which is a form of trying to force them to change their opinions.
      Maybe he shouldn't.  You have no say in what another person's identity is. You have the right not to acknowledge whatever you want, but  the other person also has the right not to associate you if you don't accept their reality.  It comes down to common courtesy.  If someone says they identify a certain way, you're not in a position to tell them they don't.  
      I have no intention of telling someone they don't identify a certain way, nor of forcing anyone to associate with me. That said, they can't force me, Helel, or anyone else to comply with their new identity, all they can do is ask someone not to speak to them anymore, which is a request I would honor, but it still woudln't have any bearing on my right to speak about him or her in third person when they aren't around.

      A person on this wiki is free to live according to "their reality", but they can't impose "their reality" on others as reality itself.

      It's also not a "new identity."  It's someone beginning to own and accept themselves for who they've always been.  That's why it's called "dead-naming."  That's why the associated surgeries are called "gender alignment" instead of the incorrect "sex change."  There's a lot you need to learn.

      Changes account for the third time.

      Changes name.

      Declares previous name "dead".

      That's a new identity.

      They may not feel that way, and you don't get to decide if they do or don't.

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    • Guys, let's keep it civil now. We don't need a war here, this thread is strictly for the demotion thread. Let's calm down now.

        Loading editor
    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      Jdeschene wrote:


      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'll set aside the "dead naming" thing for now (already mentioned it in previous post I just made), but if you consider "misgendering" to be an offense that should be against the rules, what you are basically implying is that a person should not be allowed to refer to a transgender person unless that person is willing to acknowledge the other's identity switch. If you don't believe in transgender identity to begin with, that basically means you are not allowed to refer to that person at all, which is a form of trying to force them to change their opinions.
      Maybe he shouldn't.  You have no say in what another person's identity is. You have the right not to acknowledge whatever you want, but  the other person also has the right not to associate you if you don't accept their reality.  It comes down to common courtesy.  If someone says they identify a certain way, you're not in a position to tell them they don't.  
      I have no intention of telling someone they don't identify a certain way, nor of forcing anyone to associate with me. That said, they can't force me, Helel, or anyone else to comply with their new identity, all they can do is ask someone not to speak to them anymore, which is a request I would honor, but it still woudln't have any bearing on my right to speak about him or her in third person when they aren't around.

      A person on this wiki is free to live according to "their reality", but they can't impose "their reality" on others as reality itself.

      But they and anyone else who accepts their reality have the right to correct you or refuse to associate you if you continue to intentionally get it wrong.  There is literally no reason other than spite and pettiness for you not to adapt to how someone views themselves.  It's not for you to decide who anyone is but yourself.

      They are free to "correct" and refuse to associate with me all they want. What they are not free to do is attempt to impose their views on me through disciplinary actions.

      When it comes to a transgender individual, people are free to accept "their reality", but I am still free to accept actual reality.

      Well, actual reality is that some people are transgender.  You can deny reality all you want and throw a hissy fit and act like a child because the world doesn't work the way you want it to.  That's your choice.  All choices come with consequences.  When you make the choice, you accept the consequences.

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    • Icydice wrote:
      Guys, let's keep it civil now. We don't need a war here, this thread is strictly for the demotion thread. Let's calm down now.

      Thanks, Icy.  I very much appreciate your level-headedness.  I've said what I need to and I'm unfollowing this thread now for my own sanity.

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    • Icydice wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:


      Icydice wrote:


      Slimebeast wrote: Support Support -

      Because you knew I'd find out about this, I guess.

      I don't know him, and I don't care what he says/does - if he "raids", he just gets smacked back like anyone else who's tried it.

      HOWEVER -- He literally replied to Cava and Kellum discussing killing me by telling me Kellum could kill me if he wanted to - but just doesn't want to. He's also proceeded to blame me for your moderators' actions, including his own, because I'm some boogieman subhuman to him. You don't need someone who makes problems worse like that.

      So someone who left the wiki and does not know what goes on here, nor knows the admin in question and what they do, votes? Because his opinion of you is bad, and he may or may not have ordered a raid on you (questionable)

      Interesting

      Slimebeast is known to do a lot of lurking on this wiki. He knows more about us all than you think.
      Gotcha

      Anyways, from an unbiased pov, I choose to Oppose Oppose -.

      Sure Helel has his moments of unproffesionalism. We all do. But this does not imo deserve a demotion. Action should be taken, but to demote someone for several spread out instances of what can be seen as rudeness depending on perspective is not gonna solve anything, escpecially considering this is our most prominent admin.

      I don't lurk the wiki. I hear about stuff. I knew about all of this from the Wiki Discord the day it was being discussed. Didn't want to feed into Helel's stalking theories so I didn't bother commenting. I got a copy/paste montage of every time you guys have used slurs in the Wiki server, but it doesn't concern me -- because you guys do you. Sad to see how you speak about people, but you know. Again, your deal. However, if you're going to hold an official vote about it I'll chime in.

      So yeah - as I say, I have no interest in lurking or following this stuff but here's my two cents on the vote.

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    • Slimebeast wrote:

      Icydice wrote:

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:


      Icydice wrote:


      Slimebeast wrote: Support Support -

      Because you knew I'd find out about this, I guess.

      I don't know him, and I don't care what he says/does - if he "raids", he just gets smacked back like anyone else who's tried it.

      HOWEVER -- He literally replied to Cava and Kellum discussing killing me by telling me Kellum could kill me if he wanted to - but just doesn't want to. He's also proceeded to blame me for your moderators' actions, including his own, because I'm some boogieman subhuman to him. You don't need someone who makes problems worse like that.

      So someone who left the wiki and does not know what goes on here, nor knows the admin in question and what they do, votes? Because his opinion of you is bad, and he may or may not have ordered a raid on you (questionable)

      Interesting

      Slimebeast is known to do a lot of lurking on this wiki. He knows more about us all than you think.
      Gotcha

      Anyways, from an unbiased pov, I choose to Oppose Oppose -.

      Sure Helel has his moments of unproffesionalism. We all do. But this does not imo deserve a demotion. Action should be taken, but to demote someone for several spread out instances of what can be seen as rudeness depending on perspective is not gonna solve anything, escpecially considering this is our most prominent admin.

      I don't lurk the wiki. I hear about stuff. I knew about all of this from the Wiki Discord the day it was being discussed. Didn't want to feed into Helel's stalking theories so I didn't bother commenting. I got a copy/paste montage of every time you guys have used slurs in the Wiki server, but it doesn't concern me -- because you guys do you. Sad to see how you speak about people, but you know. Again, your deal. However, if you're going to hold an official vote about it I'll chime in.

      So yeah - as I say, I have no interest in lurking or following this stuff but here's my two cents on the vote.

      Yeah, Helel has been kind of paranoid about you actively trying to do a massive sabotage of this wiki.

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    • It's really interesting to me how a conversation about Helel slowly branched off into two different conversations about transgenderism and Slimebeast. On an unrelated note, "Transgenderism and Slimebeast" sounds like a quirky direct to hulu show about a slimey monster discovering itself.

      Just a reminder folks, whether or not Helel deserves to be demoted is the topic of discussion here.

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    • EtherBot wrote:
      It's really interesting to me how a conversation about Helel slowly branched off into two different conversations about transgenderism and Slimebeast. On an unrelated note, "Transgenderism and Slimebeast" sounds like a quirky direct to hulu show about a slimey monster discovering itself.

      Just a reminder folks, whether or not Helel deserves to be demoted is the topic of discussion here.

      Couldn't have said it better myself. Ideally people won't discuss the reasons for the demotion so much it obscures the discussion of the demotion.

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    • So, two things of note I'm seeing that need to happen here.  One is that I need to take a deep look at the discord channel and its future and the other is as follows:

      Please keep the topic of discussion about the support or opposition of the aforementioned proposal.

      That being said, I will say this.  Helel, I have noticed, is very reactionary.  He seeks action quickly, though that isn't always the best course of action.  He has made some rash, reactionary decisions as has been seen above, though I do not believe his intentions were overtly negative—outside of the wording of the screencaps that Empy had presented about wanting to have people raid Slimebeast.  That's a clear violation of our on-site policy and to try to attempt to recruit people to do so is a flagrant violation of the rules.  He was immediately warned about that when it presented itself if I am recalling correctly, and if not let this serve as an official warning.  For no reason whatsoever should we be condoning, asking, encouraging, or in any way associating this website with the notion of leading or playing party to an attack, raid, etc. for content we don't like, that is critical of a user, admin, etc., or for any other reason for that matter.  

      As I have said, however, I do not believe that overall Helel is a malicious individual who is using their powers for ill intent or gain.  They have however shown that they are rash and impatient, though I have faith that with these experiences he will have learned and grown as an admin and as a user.  

      It is for the reason that I do not believe that overall his actions are performed with ill intention that I do not believe that at this time his rights should be removed.

      I will, however, strongly suggest taking the time to learn from these mistakes and to avoid making them in the future. Please, Helel, use the time that typing a reply affords to consider how your words and actions can affect people. You represent this website and community when you post in anything that bears your wiki name or in anything to which you associate your wiki ties.

      Oppose Oppose - on the condition that the actions presented here are not further repeated. I have taken notice of these patterns of behavior and do not wish to have these incidents repeated by anyone that represent us in an official capacity. If need be, I will take action to remove this what seems to be new version of CPWC if it is as deeply toxic as described. (If anyone would like to get me that list Slimebeast mentioned it would save me time and trouble trying to think of the possible awful things that have been said in there.)

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    • ClericofMadness wrote:

      It is for the reason that I do not believe that overall his actions are performed with ill intention that I do not believe that at this time his rights should be removed.

      Lemme know if you missed the discussion on your Discord where Helel said that killing me wouldn't be murder because I'm a virus. Can send it to you.

      That, or where he openly says he wants to destroy me.

      Or other stuff you might not have seen on your server. Reply's related to the approve/oppose because I'm directly discussing the vote and offering further information related to your vote. I feel like the intent is pretty ill.

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    • Slimebeast wrote:
      ClericofMadness wrote:

      It is for the reason that I do not believe that overall his actions are performed with ill intention that I do not believe that at this time his rights should be removed.

      Lemme know if you missed the discussion on your Discord where Helel said that killing me wouldn't be murder because I'm a virus. Can send it to you.

      That, or where he openly says he wants to destroy me.

      Or other stuff you might not have seen on your server. Reply's related to the approve/oppose because I'm directly discussing the vote and offering further information related to your vote. I feel like the intent is pretty ill.

      See also the postscript I added to my post; I am definitely interested in those screencaps.  Thought I will say I do not have control over that server, as it was created by a member who also no longer retains control over it.  I believe Helel is currently in control of it.

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    • Squidmanescape
      Squidmanescape removed this reply because:
      dumb shit
      04:46, August 4, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Now, this may not be my first comment (I forget passwords) but I'm shocked that an admin was banned.

        Loading editor
    • He hasn't been banned. This thread is to vote on whether he should be demoted as an admin. If you have no strong opinion one way or the other, you do not need to vote.

        Loading editor
    • Oh, I'm an idiot lol.

      Support Support -

        Loading editor
    • By voting this way, you are saying he should be demoted, correct? Just making sure.

        Loading editor
    • Oppose Oppose -

      People are too soft nowadays and think others with a harsher and more sarcastically personality should all be super nice and supporting. They shouldn't be. Each to there own. It's not like he's forcefully going onto users blogs/talk pages and railing them with insults. 

      Seriously, some of these accusations aren't even offense and simply jokes. I'm pretty sure he's allowed to have his own personality and opinions. Sure some of them are questionable, but a good chunk of his responses are to the cringy/special snowflake part of the community and such people shouldn't be tolerated. This isn't a safe place for gay jeff the killer fanfics where he turns into a dog furry and humps a penguin, and such people are asking for tolerance while showing said admin none for his own choices. I"m sick of people like that, it's hypocritical. Hell, a few of these people stating there "opinions" are saying he removed their story, aka, doing his job and there just salty about it. 

      More than half your reasoning for him to be removed is 

      A) Nitpicking

      B) insulting his friends jokingly

      C) Out of context things

      D) Personal emotion

      • It honestly seems more like you disagree with him, or got angry at him for something, so you're going out of your way to look through the smallest things to use agisted him. 

      I get this shit all the time from random mods and discords and chats. Hell, I just got attacked by several users on the resident evil wiki and ban from the discord because I said: "It's illegal to ask people to work and not pay them." So I understand how he feels and that this simply isn't that big a deal being blow out of protion .  However, frankly, while I do not support transgenders in any way shape or form, I do not believe an admin should be showcasing such hate towards them. I'm by no means going to call someone "super naruto ninja master" if they ask, regardless if they changed their gender, name, occupation, etc; but an admin should be more understanding and put his own wishes aside sometimes, which is the only real issue I see here. It's a wiki, but a small amount of professionalism should be required by the admins/mods. - Still, I've been to several other wikis like the Monster HUNTER wiki with admins who insulted and harassed me for saying hello on there chat, as I had an anime icon(Idk how that was an issue?), and then blocked me from the wiki. And honestly, I don't think  Helte is like that to my knowledge. So, compared to several other harsher wiki's, where people are actually being insulted/harassed by unjust staff, his actions aren't that big a deal right now. 

      But all in all, this is frankly hypocritical as all hell and the wiki itself is getting very melodramatic lately and I've noticed it's steaming from the same users. I'm more worried about theatrics over a wiki page than an admin telling someone there story is shit when it is. 




      And as a final note, if the discord is not in admin/wiki control and used for the wiki for editing and what not, I don't think anything that goes on there should have an impact in this argument at all, as it is not wiki inolved. If users do not like how he acts there, they have the options to igore him, block him, or leave the server, so it's by there own choice to put up with him. 

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    • I'm having witch hunt flashbacks again...

      Oppose Oppose -

      Others have said pretty much how I feel already, though I'm not sure how I feel is in any way valid these days. I haven't seen anything that constitutes reasonable grounds for demoting anyone, let alone someone who busts his ass on this site like Helel does. I can't even drop by the wiki without seeing him getting up to something new in the activity feed.

      All this vote does for me is reinforce a lot of things I already learned from the internet. Being abrasive isn't a crime, nor is being blunt and honest. Off-site smack-talking someone who acts like a jerk is normal behavior and not an indication of malicious intent. Lifestyle choices don't entitle you to jack shit. Most of all, quoting things out of context does not a valid case make, but it sure makes it easy to villify people you have beef with. I feel like the people who voted in favor of this need to get out of the house more.

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    • Mikemacdee wrote:
      I'm having witch hunt flashbacks again...

      Oppose Oppose -

      Others have said pretty much how I feel already, though I'm not sure how I feel is in any way valid these days. I haven't seen anything that constitutes reasonable grounds for demoting anyone, let alone someone who busts his ass on this site like Helel does. I can't even drop by the wiki without seeing him getting up to something new in the activity feed.

      All this vote does for me is reinforce a lot of things I already learned from the internet. Being abrasive isn't a crime, nor is being blunt and honest. Off-site smack-talking someone who acts like a jerk is normal behavior and not an indication of malicious intent. Lifestyle choices don't entitle you to jack shit. Most of all, quoting things out of context does not a valid case make, but it sure makes it easy to villify people you have beef with. I feel like the people who voted in favor of this need to get out of the house more.

      Please mind your words, Mr. MacDee: you may scare the children.

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    • I don't see any reason to support this. I haven't been here long enough to see anything wrong with the guy, and I think that supporting it or having an action done over the misgivings of a single rant-post would only encourage more drama like this and more distraction and wasting of time that could be better used for promoting collaboration of writing and helping our fellow writers get off the ground. Writers should stick together and help lift one another up instead of trying to tear each other down. The world is unfair enough without this petty childishness.

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    • Oppose Oppose - I'll keep this rather short (or try to anyway.) I can see the merit in the complaints, especially those of misgendering, which I feel can be an emotionally damaging act, especially if done in malice with full awareness of the situation. I won't pretend to fully understand the complete rollercoaster of emotions and adjustments that must go into revealing your true self to the world, but I can certainly see where comments trying to derail or discredit that can be extremely harmful. I certainly hope that Helel can take this as a learning experience when it comes to future interactions with trans individuals and gain some empathy to the very human core of such matters.

      Moving forward though, I am opposed to the demotion based on the grounds that while these complaints can be seen a valid, I do not agree that they warrant a demotion. We have B-Crats and senior admins such as myself, Cleric and others who can take these complaints to Helel in private and explain to him why these issues matter. If future problems show up, then this can be used to demonstrate that he has been addressed on this, and then a demotion can be discussed.

      I simply feel, especially knowing Helel and how much he does care about this community, this site and its advancement, that a demotion is overkill in this case. Jumping straight to this level seems a be more reactive than proactive, which should always be the goal.

      All of us possess the ability to learn and improve as people, and in too many situations we seem to confuse punishment with learning. It's not the same thing and the two don't need to always join hands.

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    • Mikemacdee wrote:
      I'm having witch hunt flashbacks again...

      I'm not surprised since Helel and a handful of Wiki staff, including yourself, are very close to witch hunting. For example, when you lied about my falling out with this wiki and spread disinformation to the rest of the channel. It's all pretty witch-hunty. I should just let your unprofessional jerk post speak for itself, but hey.

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    • Slimebeast wrote:

      Mikemacdee wrote:
      I'm having witch hunt flashbacks again...

      I'm not surprised since Helel and a handful of Wiki staff, including yourself, are very close to witch hunting. For example, when you lied about my falling out with this wiki and spread disinformation to the rest of the channel. It's all pretty witch-hunty.

      Witch hunting or not, if we must have these discussions we have discord to do so. This thread is already hell as is.

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    • Jdeschene wrote:

      Icydice wrote:
      Guys, let's keep it civil now. We don't need a war here, this thread is strictly for the demotion thread. Let's calm down now.

      Thanks, Icy.  I very much appreciate your level-headedness.  I've said what I need to and I'm unfollowing this thread now for my own sanity.

      Jdeschene, Amen to that! Even when I don't agree with you, your opinions are sane and for the best of the community.

      I am unsubscribing from this thread. It has degenerated into heat rather than light and is completely off topic now.

      Doctor Bob Smith, MD, Specializing in Proctology. (talk) 22:29, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

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    • If anyone disagrees with any of the points here, please tell me.

      • Helel ben Shahaar should be (no offense) less like Resdraon for the reason that he scares and offends people sometimes.
        • He is good at blocking and deletion, and if he were to be demoted, he would just be repromoted anyways because of this.
        • His abrasiveness and bold sense of humor and general speech have rubbed some people the wrong way.
      • This post should not exist because it's a turd of unaired complaints.
        • If Helel had been told about this previously, then he could have stopped or fixed his actions. Making this kind of thread takes away his agency to some extent.
        • Squirreling criticism so you can make a giant critique ball is inferior to talking to multiple admins about a problem.
      • Walls of hate are bad because they might accidentally house actual criticism or questions.

      I'm sorry for saying "turd" and if my points are obviously wrong or outdated.

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    • Of course, he should be less than me, as no one is as great as I. 

      He's welcomed to try and get onto my level, but lets face it, I'm to far up the staircase for him to catch up =3= 

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    • My only question at this point is how long this thread is going to be open for. It seems like the issues have been addressed, and cases have been made for both sides. Votes have been cast, and I don't think there's really much left to say. Besides, some users are just getting tired of this thing. It's massive at this point, but it seems like it's already concluded on the main issue.

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    • TheWizardOfTheWoods wrote: My only question at this point is how long this thread is going to be open for.

      According to the demotion rules the thread is supposed to remain open for ten days. Yikes! I don't know if this wiki can stand much more of this.

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    • Squidmanescape
      Squidmanescape removed this reply because:
      bad
      06:02, August 5, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Oof, ow. I don't really want to try to keep up with this for 10 days, but I still want to stay in the loop. Hopefully all the noise dies down at least.

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    • Just change the topic and start talking about cute doggos and katties or something 

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    • Lol, I support that option full-heartedly.

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    • Actual question: should we start doing Mod Reciew threads (monthly posts, people talk about what they like and don’t like about the mod team)? I feel like if we did this earlier, there would be next to no reason for this thread. It seems like a bunch of people had problems with Helel, but no one told him and now he’s at risk of demotion because of it.

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    • ArcOfRuin wrote: Actual question: should we start doing Mod Reciew threads (monthly posts, people talk about what they like and don’t like about the mod team)? I feel like if we did this earlier, there would be next to no reason for this thread. It seems like a bunch of people had problems with Helel, but no one told him and now he’s at risk of demotion because of it.

      Hmmm, not a bad idea. The problem with this whole thread is that the accusers didn't want to come forward and express their discontent with Helel (not until this thread was made). Maybe that will change if admins go out of our way to ask for such feedback.

      I am not sure though if this will have much of an impact. In this case, Helel was bold with some users who are only here to post their story and go, or they left after their interaction with Helel. They would not be able to contribute to that thread. And what happens if someone wants to raise a concern before the Monthly Mod Review thread is posted?

      What needs to be done is to make sure the users understand this is a mod team and if they have an issue with a member of the team they can contact another admin about it. Maybe a complaints box, of sorts? Also, I think it would be good if the welcome message was changed a bit, to let people know that they can contact another admin if they have a problem. Every user gets this message when they register, so everyone would be theoretically informed of this.

      Any thoughts?

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    • Icydice wrote:

      Slimebeast wrote:


      Mikemacdee wrote:
      I'm having witch hunt flashbacks again...
      I'm not surprised since Helel and a handful of Wiki staff, including yourself, are very close to witch hunting. For example, when you lied about my falling out with this wiki and spread disinformation to the rest of the channel. It's all pretty witch-hunty.
      Witch hunting or not, if we must have these discussions we have discord to do so. This thread is already hell as is.

      Umm what this meant

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    • Icydice wrote:

      Slimebeast wrote:

      Mikemacdee wrote:
      I'm having witch hunt flashbacks again...

      I'm not surprised since Helel and a handful of Wiki staff, including yourself, are very close to witch hunting. For example, when you lied about my falling out with this wiki and spread disinformation to the rest of the channel. It's all pretty witch-hunty.

      Witch hunting or not, if we must have these discussions we have discord to do so. This thread is already hell as is.

      As far as I am aware there is no discord that is run in an official capacity by the staff here.

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    • Discord is currently owned by me and moderated by two more users (one rollback and one common user) but it isn't affiliated with wiki officially.

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    • Helel ben Shahaar wrote: Discord is currently owned by me and moderated by two more users (one rollback and one common user) but it isn't affiliated with wiki officially.

      Which would make it a bad platform for discussions that should happen in a public place.

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    • All I see is some low-key half joking remarks, Matthew overreacting to an obvious joke, people taking offense to things that are absolutely microaggressions at their worst, and """TrAnSpHoBiA""".

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    • You can see that Helel is clearly joking with Brockmeyer, and it's Matthew who instigates any confrontation with it. Helel provides his own opinion- something you defend in other users in all of your other points, and Matthew feels the need to chad up on him.

      "My book looked like a headless coyote ran all over my pages while being chased by a marigold? Really? Hmmm. Interesting. I guess workshopping those opening chapters with Chuck Palahniuk, Ania Ahlborn, John Skipp and David Corbett was just a waste of time. What would they know? They're just bestselling authors, nothing compared to you.

      And all those beta readers, including our own Shadow Swimmer must not know what they're talking about either.

      Packmember? You think I'm a member of your pack? Guess again douche bag"

      Helel then makes a very obvious joke which should have defused him. Instead, Matthew continues being an egotistical drag.

      Before bias is called out, Matthew and I are in good standing and used to speak a decent bit. I, on the other hand, have had zero contact with Helel in years if anything at all.

      Call bullshit where you see it, not where you want to see it.

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    • Oppose Oppose - on the grounds of hypocrisy in the argument, inability to provide any harsh evidence, and obvious turncoating of a situation to make Helel look like he was the douche in the situation.

      Also, your feelings being hurt off site does not justify on-site punishment.

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    • Helel ben Shahaar wrote:
      Discord is currently owned by me and moderated by two more users (one rollback and one common user) but it isn't affiliated with wiki officially.

      Which means that all discord related issues should be left there, as it's not affiliated with the wiki, and have no real connection to your work as a mod here. 

      Not to mention on discords, people have the option to block, ignore a user, and even, omg, LEAVE a group!?!

      Next, they're gonna want to fire company workers because they said they hate their job at a bar one night. 

      You ever think about suing for disposition of character? 

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    • Resdraon wrote:

      Helel ben Shahaar wrote:
      Discord is currently owned by me and moderated by two more users (one rollback and one common user) but it isn't affiliated with wiki officially.

      Which means that all discord related issues should be left there, as it's not affiliated with the wiki, and have no real connection to your work as a mod here. 

      Not to mention on discords, people have the option to block, ignore a user, and even, omg, LEAVE a group!?!

      Next, they're gonna want to fire company workers because they said they hate their job at a bar one night. 

      You ever think about suing for disposition of character? 

      Well, no. As an administrator you are an ambassador for the site and what you say and do will absolutely have an impact on the wiki itself because people will connect you to the wiki. This means that when you are out making a fool of yourself because you never managed to mature past 7th-grade humor or develop a sense of tact you are actively creating opportunities to attack the character of the site and its community.

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    • Llanunall wrote:

      Resdraon wrote:

      Helel ben Shahaar wrote:
      Discord is currently owned by me and moderated by two more users (one rollback and one common user) but it isn't affiliated with wiki officially.
      Which means that all discord related issues should be left there, as it's not affiliated with the wiki, and have no real connection to your work as a mod here. 

      Not to mention on discords, people have the option to block, ignore a user, and even, omg, LEAVE a group!?!

      Next, they're gonna want to fire company workers because they said they hate their job at a bar one night. 

      You ever think about suing for disposition of character? 

      Well, no. As an administrator you are an ambassador for the site and what you say and do will absolutely have an impact on the wiki itself because people will connect you to the wiki. This means that when you are out making a fool of yourself because you never managed to mature past 7th-grade humor or develop a sense of tact you are actively creating opportunities to attack the character of the site and its community.

      Well, no(Because apparently having a different opinion isn't a thing and we should address others opinions as false instead of saying "I disagree"?). This is a wiki and the discord, while having the same crowd, is not afflicted with the wiki, and therefore he is not an administrator of the wiki at said place. If I go to the mall and get into a fight with a book store clerk, I might be ban from the store, but they don't have the right to stop my next novel from coming out because the two are not connected. I might lose a few book sales if they know who I am, as we will lose a few random users by an admins actions, but because of a simple falling out I do not believe someones effort/hardwork/individuality should be thrown out the door simply because of people not getting along. I find this to be the case simply because, while he may be a mod of said discord, he's not the one bring the stuff to the wiki. You people are, despite the fact most of the poll argument is him joking insulting to a friend, nit picking, or simply telling someone there story is shit. Maybe if half the accusations being thrown around weren't like this, I'd have a different opinion. 

      If anything, the ones acting like dumb 7th graders are the ones getting so offended yet staying in said discord adding fuel to a very small fire. Simply LEAVE his discord, as it is not affiliated with the wiki and won't be posting edits/updates that you need to know to be part of the community. There are other discords out there, or you have the option of making a poll asking for one ran by selected admins/mods of the wiki(We had one before, but things got toxic like this, people kept bring it to the wiki, etc, aka like this shit)

      Simply block him, report him to discord staff, ignore him, or leave his group and start your own. If you're being bullied by someone, you do not seek out the bully. You do not go to the bullies house and call him a fuckwit and expect him to leave you alone on Monday during first period. In other words, you people are crying your brother hit you, even though you hit him back. I thought we all learned by the age of 10 how un-logical that is? 

      I do understand how him being a jerk on the discord could give users who enjoy creepy pastas and use the wiki,(as the overall theme is the same connecting the said wiki and discord) thoughts about how unprofessional the wiki is, but it's pretty unfair to tell someone they can't be who they want to be offsite in the same community just because on one platform they hold power. You are preaching tolerance and professionalism, yet I've seen none from you people and perhaps doing the mature thing and just ignoring the fool would be for the best. The way this whole poll was brought about is proof of this and frankly, THE WIKI needs to change/update it's policies on these things. 

      Until he brings it to this site. Unless he's insulting users here to there faces here, deleting stories because he dislikes a user, not doing his job, telling people to flood the wiki with hate from his discord, etc, I do not feel it's right to take away his position as admin based on offsite related problems based on what I've stated in both my post about this. 

      However, as I said before, his On-site actions(not the jokes between friends and what not) do need to improve a bit, as it's the same for him. He can dislike you  people all he wants, as you do him, but when he's purposely mis-gendering someone on the wiki that's another story. If he was a normal user, it wouldn't be a problem, but as an admin he should know better and HE'S the one that needs to be tolerant here and show professionalism. 

      Once again, the wiki really does need to change/update the way they go about these, "Demotion of admins", as this whole thread/problem(BOTH SIDES included) is unprofessional, whining, cringy, hypocritical, nit picking, and shows a bunch of false/irlvenet information and needs to be done in a more respectful manner. 

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    • Now than, everyone needs to calm down and check out how cute this bird is. He has the fabs and is sure to be a star in a movie one day. 

      Pict-2
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    • Resdraon wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      Resdraon wrote:

      Helel ben Shahaar wrote:
      Discord is currently owned by me and moderated by two more users (one rollback and one common user) but it isn't affiliated with wiki officially.
      Which means that all discord related issues should be left there, as it's not affiliated with the wiki, and have no real connection to your work as a mod here. 

      Not to mention on discords, people have the option to block, ignore a user, and even, omg, LEAVE a group!?!

      Next, they're gonna want to fire company workers because they said they hate their job at a bar one night. 

      You ever think about suing for disposition of character? 

      Well, no. As an administrator you are an ambassador for the site and what you say and do will absolutely have an impact on the wiki itself because people will connect you to the wiki. This means that when you are out making a fool of yourself because you never managed to mature past 7th-grade humor or develop a sense of tact you are actively creating opportunities to attack the character of the site and its community.

      Well, no(Because apparently having a different opinion isn't a thing and we should address others opinions as false instead of saying "I disagree"?). This is a wiki and the discord, while having the same crowd, is not afflicted with the wiki, and therefore he is not an administrator of the wiki at said place. If I go to the mall and get into a fight with a book store clerk, I might be ban from the store, but they don't have the right to stop my next novel from coming out because the two are not connected. I might lose a few book sales if they know who I am, as we will lose a few random users by an admins actions, but because of a simple falling out I do not believe someones effort/hardwork/individuality should be thrown out the door simply because of people not getting along. I find this to be the case simply because, while he may be a mod of said discord, he's not the one bring the stuff to the wiki. You people are, despite the fact most of the poll argument is him joking insulting to a friend, nit picking, or simply telling someone there story is shit. Maybe if half the accusations being thrown around weren't like this, I'd have a different opinion. 

      If anything, the ones acting like dumb 7th graders are the ones getting so offended yet staying in said discord adding fuel to a very small fire. Simply LEAVE his discord, as it is not affiliated with the wiki and won't be posting edits/updates that you need to know to be part of the community. There are other discords out there, or you have the option of making a poll asking for one ran by selected admins/mods of the wiki(We had one before, but things got toxic like this, people kept bring it to the wiki, etc, aka like this shit)

      Simply block him, report him to discord staff, ignore him, or leave his group and start your own. If you're being bullied by someone, you do not seek out the bully. You do not go to the bullies house and call him a fuckwit and expect him to leave you alone on Monday during first period. In other words, you people are crying your brother hit you, even though you hit him back. I thought we all learned by the age of 10 how un-logical that is? 

      I do understand how him being a jerk on the discord could give users who enjoy creepy pastas and use the wiki,(as the overall theme is the same connecting the said wiki and discord) thoughts about how unprofessional the wiki is, but it's pretty unfair to tell someone they can't be who they want to be offsite in the same community just because on one platform they hold power. You are preaching tolerance and professionalism, yet I've seen none from you people and perhaps doing the mature thing and just ignoring the fool would be for the best. The way this whole poll was brought about is proof of this and frankly, THE WIKI needs to change/update it's policies on these things. 

      Until he brings it to this site. Unless he's insulting users here to there faces here, deleting stories because he dislikes a user, not doing his job, telling people to flood the wiki with hate from his discord, etc, I do not feel it's right to take away his position as admin based on offsite related problems based on what I've stated in both my post about this. 

      However, as I said before, his On-site actions(not the jokes between friends and what not) do need to improve a bit, as it's the same for him. He can dislike you  people all he wants, as you do him, but when he's purposely mis-gendering someone on the wiki that's another story. If he was a normal user, it wouldn't be a problem, but as an admin he should know better and HE'S the one that needs to be tolerant here and show professionalism. 

      Once again, the wiki really does need to change/update the way they go about these, "Demotion of admins", as this whole thread/problem(BOTH SIDES included) is unprofessional, whining, cringy, hypocritical, nit picking, and shows a bunch of false/irlvenet information and needs to be done in a more respectful manner. 

      There are matters of opinion and of fact, this being the latter.

      The discord does not, in fact, need to be an official part of the wiki in order for the actions of the administrators to have an effect on the site. As we can see from the Banning scandal unfolding from #CreepyLeaks your actions off-site, especially on discord, can and do have an impact on the reputation of the site. When you, as an administrator, choose to act in a way that is not conductive nor in-line with the wishes or views of the community you inevitably draw criticism of the site back through yourself.

      A decent analogy for the situation would be going into a bar and telling others that their gender identity isn't valid, having that uploaded to Facebook with your boss tagged, and then coming into work the next day to find out HR is letting you go.

      Sure, you can try to say that it was outside of work and that shouldn't count but when it comes down to it the bosses know that keeping you on board would be seen as a silent affirmation of your actions. Luckily, some of the more decent people in this community can stand up and say that this sort of behavior is inappropriate and something needs to be done. Whether that action manifests itself as a conversation between administrators or a demotion is up to the community as a whole.

      The ones acting immature, in my opinion, are the ones who cannot come to terms with the fact that this could be a very large problem that requires something to be done to address it. Whether it be now or a system put in place to do so in the future.

      Now, you hit upon something rather important. Should administrators be people who can only behave in-line with the values when they are on the wiki or should we just promote people who naturally embody the values of the wiki in all aspects of their online presence? Personally I think it should be the latter. Admins should not feel they are forced to fit their behavior into guidelines while here because they are only going to run up against conflict because of it. Admins should be people who don't need to be told what is and is not appropriate behavior because it is how they conduct themselves already.

      Lastly, how would you go about putting up a petition for demotion in a way that is respectful?

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    • Resdraon wrote:
      Now than, everyone needs to calm down and check out how cute this bird is. He has the fabs and is sure to be a star in a movie one day. 
      Pict-2

      Thanks, Resdraon. I needed this image more than I knew.

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    • Helel ben Shahaar wrote:
      Resdraon wrote:
      Now than, everyone needs to calm down and check out how cute this bird is. He has the fabs and is sure to be a star in a movie one day. 
      Pict-2
      Thanks, Resdraon. I needed this image more than I knew.

      Np. Kiwi birds like this are the only snowflakes I like dealing with. 

      I recommend a beer as well as some taco bell. 

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    • So I just got a new mouse for my computer, it's pretty damn slick. My last novel took twice as long because my last damn mouser had to be punched to be able to right click. 

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    • This is a wiki and the discord, while having the same crowd, is not afflicted with the wiki, and therefore he is not an administrator of the wiki at said place.

      I would typically agree with that sentiment, but in this case Helel himself has blurred the lines between the two by using discord for wiki business. The best example would be his blog post for the new We Go Bump anthology. He states:

      For your story to be considered, you need to visit the unofficial CPW Discord Server. This is due to ease of comunications about formalities such as introduction, further stories, usw

      So in order to take part in an official wiki project, you have to go through his unofficial discord. Moving forward, he should either COMPLETELY separate the two or clean up his act.

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    • I have to point out that it is highly unlikely this (or Banning/Slimebeast) will have any effect on the wiki, apart from discussions on the matter. I am 100% sure that if you took a newly registered user and asked them what they think of (say) Helel's demotion thread, they wouldn't even know who he is. The fact of the matter is the active users on the wiki are but a small percentage of people drawn to this place. We get more than 1 million monthly views and the vast majority are from people who don't care at all about what goes on behind the scenes (quite probably they are not even aware there is a 'behind the scenes').

      I don't think we have to fret about harming the wiki's reputation with the personal actions of admins. If I remember correctly, we've had admins do much, much worse stuff than both Helel and Banning (and I don't even think Banning has done anything wrong, I'm putting him in just for the sake of argument). I believe we had an admin use sock-puppets to nominate his stories for PotM, we had another admin create a bot to record personal information on the old chat and we had an admin (I think he was an admin...) who plagiarized most of his work, the greatest sin in the literary world. Has any of these affected the wiki? Have you even heard of them (I barely even know the details myself)? Do you think new users know about these things?

      Most probably, no. So I believe we are safe.

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    • MrDupin wrote: I have to point out that it is highly unlikely this (or Banning/Slimebeast) will have any effect on the wiki, apart from discussions on the matter. I am 100% sure that if you took a newly registered user and asked them what they think of (say) Helel's demotion thread, they wouldn't even know who he is. The fact of the matter is the active users on the wiki are but a small percentage of people drawn to this place. We get more than 1 million monthly views and the vast majority are from people who don't care at all about what goes on behind the scenes (quite probably they are not even aware there is a 'behind the scenes').

      I don't think we have to fret about harming the wiki's reputation with the personal actions of admins. If I remember correctly, we've had admins do much, much worse stuff than both Helel and Banning (and I don't even think Banning has done anything wrong, I'm putting him in just for the sake of argument). I believe we had an admin use sock-puppets to nominate his stories for PotM, we had another admin create a bot to record personal information on the old chat and we had an admin (I think he was an admin...) who plagiarized most of his work, the greatest sin in the literary world. Has any of these affected the wiki? Have you even heard of them (I barely even know the details myself)? Do you think new users know about these things?

      Most probably, no. So I believe we are safe.

      To be fair, an admin using socks, botting a chat, or faking his work aren't in the same notoriety boat as saying you know where an author lives and could kill them but the only thing stopping you is that you don't want to waste the time in jail.

      That or supporting the latter...

      But, you know, Cup of tea

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    • It appears that Creepy Thomas isn't too fond of me.

      However, one cannot deny that he is right.

      The reason WGB participants should've applied to Discord has proven unsustainable and unmanageable, and the only reason I haven't removed that requirement yet is due to my nature to easily forget things.

      But now that I have been reminded, I will happily tend to it.

      Oh and, to clarify: it is Cleric that prohibits legitimizing Discord (I imagine the alleged horrors of CPWC are still fresh in his minds). I am personally all for Discord being legitimized, because it is now moderated, and I think it is significantly easier to manage than the outdated Wikia Chat. However, until we sysops agree to otherwise, Discord remains a bastard child.

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    • If it makes everyone feel better, I would gladly kill everyone if I wouldn't get jail time. 

      This is a creepy pasta site, so I felt we all shared that in common. 

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    • Resdraon wrote: If it makes everyone feel better, I would gladly kill everyone if I wouldn't get jail time. 

      This is a creepy pasta site, so I felt we all shared that in common. 

      oof, the edge.

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    • Llanunall wrote:

      Resdraon wrote: If it makes everyone feel better, I would gladly kill everyone if I wouldn't get jail time. 

      This is a creepy pasta site, so I felt we all shared that in common. 

      oof, the edge.

      Oof, snowflakes.

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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:01, August 7, 2018
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    • Llanunall wrote:

      To be fair, an admin using socks, botting a chat, or faking his work aren't in the same notoriety boat as saying you know where an author lives and could kill them but the only thing stopping you is that you don't want to waste the time in jail.

      That or supporting the latter...

      But, you know, Cup of tea

      Banning didn't support the murder comments. It was an obvious joke-y comment to lighten the mood of the chatroom. Saying "If you tell them it's Slimebeast who you killed, they will let you off scotch-free" is not supporting of murder, not in the slightest.

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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:01, August 7, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • MrDupin wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      To be fair, an admin using socks, botting a chat, or faking his work aren't in the same notoriety boat as saying you know where an author lives and could kill them but the only thing stopping you is that you don't want to waste the time in jail.

      That or supporting the latter...

      But, you know, Cup of tea

      Banning didn't support the murder comments. It was an obvious joke-y comment to lighten the mood of the chatroom. Saying "If you tell them it's Slimebeast who you killed, they will let you off scotch-free" is not supporting of murder, not in the slightest.

      Banning made the murder comment though.

      Joke or not that is defiantly not something that a wiki administrator or a con chair should be saying, especially not about a prominent author in the community.

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    • Llanunall wrote:

      Banning made the murder comment though.

      Joke or not that is defiantly not something that a wiki administrator or a con chair should be saying, especially not about a prominent author in the community.

      It wasn't Banning who made the comment, it was Vincent Vena Cava. Banning said something like "If the police see his twitter page, they will let you go free". I don't know about you, but I am talking about the video Slimebeast posted on his channel.

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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:02, August 7, 2018
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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:02, August 7, 2018
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    • MrDupin wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      Banning made the murder comment though.

      Joke or not that is defiantly not something that a wiki administrator or a con chair should be saying, especially not about a prominent author in the community.

      It wasn't Banning who made the comment, it was Vincent Vena Cava. Banning said something like "If the police see his twitter page, they will let you go free". I don't know about you, but I am talking about the video Slimebeast posted on his channel.

      My apologies.

      Yet, that doesn't make it less worse somehow. It is almost like a comment like that should make one want to distance oneself from it.

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    • Oppose Oppose -

      There's not really a lot here that proves Helel unfit for adminship on this wiki. Many of these comments were clearly taken out-of-context, and while I can see the reasoning in a few of the points, I can also refute them with a simple explanation: millennial angst. As a frighteningly self-aware millennial myself, I can see that Helel isn't trying to be as callous as he seems. Much like James Gunn, a lot of his posts are easily (and understandably) misinterpreted, and, also like James Gunn, he's got a lot to offer. The only real thing to hate about Helel is his abhorrent music taste, so I'm going to have to oppose.

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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:02, August 7, 2018
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    • Llanunall wrote:

      My apologies.

      Yet, that doesn't make it less worse somehow. It is almost like a comment like that should make one want to distance oneself from it.

      Maybe Banning should have distanced himself. Maybe he wanted to simply lighten the mood. In the moment, he wanted to act and he did. We cannot be walking on eggshells all the time, ready to bounce when something goes south.

      Jesus, he didn't go full psycho nor did he hurt anyone. He just made a silly, "absurd" comment. It might have even been purely reactionary. Have you never been in a conversation where you said something you didn't want to say? Your mouth just blurting things out on its own accord? Take it easy, these things happen.

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    • It appears that Creepy Thomas isn't too fond of me.

      Actually I have mixed feelings. I voted against the demotion, and in retrospect, contrasting you with Empy was uncalled for, so for that, I apologize.

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    • Squidmanescape
      Squidmanescape removed this reply because:
      Dumb comment
      23:06, August 5, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • MrDupin wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      My apologies.

      Yet, that doesn't make it less worse somehow. It is almost like a comment like that should make one want to distance oneself from it.

      Maybe Banning should have distanced himself. Maybe he wanted to simply lighten the mood. In the moment, he wanted to act and he did. We cannot be walking on eggshells all the time, ready to bounce when something goes south.

      Jesus, he didn't go full psycho nor did he hurt anyone. He just made a silly, "absurd" comment. It might have even been purely reactionary. Have you never been in a conversation where you said something you didn't want to say? Your mouth just blurting things out on its own accord? Take it easy, these things happen.

      Perhaps I am being rather too strict in my assessment of the situation.

      While I still stand by my position that such a comment was uncouth I will concede that it wasn't as big of a deal as it might have initially seemed. With that said, the amount of dismissal in this thread is rather worrying. I do not think that some people are taking this matter as seriously as they should and some of the comments made by people here have been a little bit more than sad.

      I hold the opinion that a community that focuses itself around writing and reviewing literature should have, at the least, some base-line concept of respect, especially in the administration. That is not to say that you have to be prim and proper with everything that you do and say but there is some level of politeness and good-faith that must be employed by someone whose job it is to work directly with the community.

      Whether or not this thread ends in demotion is no longer a concern to me. If the admins think that they can work together to be more friendly then by all means go ahead. If the community thinks that he should be demoted then that's out of my hands. As it is I am going to leave my position in favor of demotion unchanged.

      All said and done, I have spoken my mind as much as I really care to and now I am going to leave this entire mess be.

      P.s. shouldn't you, or another admin, be clearing out all of the off-topic responses like the rules say?

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    • Oppose Oppose -

      Nothing shown here has been bad enough to justify stripping them of their title. Also, the one about the person asking why their story was deleted seems to look like it's from the Deletion Appeal - where it explicitly states not to ask why your story was deleted.

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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:03, August 7, 2018
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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:03, August 7, 2018
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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:03, August 7, 2018
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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:03, August 7, 2018
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    • ClericofMadness
      ClericofMadness removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      20:04, August 7, 2018
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    • Can we end the thread now? Do we really need two more people to oppose this vote?

      EDIT: I didn't think this through.

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    • Squidmanescape wrote: Can we end the thread now? Do we really need two more people to oppose this vote?

      As per site policy this thread must remain open for 10-days since the day of creation.

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    • I second that sentiment. This thread has gone on long enough and I think we've reached enough of a consensus.

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    • Llanunall wrote:

      Squidmanescape wrote: Can we end the thread now? Do we really need two more people to oppose this vote?

      As per site policy this thread must remain open for 10-days since the day of creation.

      What else is there to discuss? Are we supposed to get everybody on a single side?

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    • Well, it seems like we just have to be patient and let it time itself out.

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    • Squidmanescape wrote:

      Llanunall wrote:

      Squidmanescape wrote: Can we end the thread now? Do we really need two more people to oppose this vote?

      As per site policy this thread must remain open for 10-days since the day of creation.

      What else is there to discuss? Are we supposed to get everybody on a single side?

      Pretty self explanatory... Who knows what else there is to discuss, but if suddenly it turns out there is, there's a six day window after this to get that in there.

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    • EtherBot wrote: I second that sentiment. This thread has gone on long enough and I think we've reached enough of a consensus.

      Technically, there isn't a 3/4 consensus. It's 9 support, 1 neutral, 25 oppose, 1 N/A.

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    • I'm content with letting it run its course only because it'll protect Helel from anyone coming back later and claiming the thread was closed down early for some shady reason or another.

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    • We're halfway through. Just let the clock run out.

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    • Okay....?
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    • Raven-danger-navy wrote:

      Okay....?

      So do you {{Support}}, {{Neutral}}, or {{Oppose}} Lokintas' decision?

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    • Can't say I'm particularly impressed by most of the people in this thread. Can't say I'm surprised, given what I've seen elsewhere on this wiki and in its site Discord. Lack of basic respect between an admin and their users is never a good thing, unwillingness to acknowledge when you may have done wrong and attempt to improve is never a good thing, and that so many people are quick to jump to the defense of blatantly disrespectful and hurtful actions against a member who has not done any wrong, when they have repeatedly asked that it stop, says something pretty unflattering about this community as a whole.

      That this is the first thing I see when I return after this exact sort of behavior from multiple users is what prompted me to take a break from the site in the first place is something that I'm just going to take as an omen.

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    • Zarinaaa wrote: unwillingness to acknowledge when you may have done wrong and attempt to improve is never a good thing

      As has been noted, we discussed with Helel and he has vowed to improve and adjust his behavior.

      Zarinaaa wrote: a member who has not done any wrong

      If you are talking about Lokintas, a lot of the concern with the demotion thread is the lack of context in the "transphobic" comments accusation. We have repeatedly asked her to provide the proper context in support of the claims, but nothing has been put forth. Helel says that Lokintas was making hurtful comments as well and this is nothing more than an internet fight. Proper context by the accuser is needed to clear this up, but it has not been provided.

      We are not jumping to defend Helel, we are saying that with the lack of clarity presented in the demotion thread, the accusations don't hold much substance.

      We need verifiable, clear evidence to demote someone, not one-sided screencaps.

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    • Because defending someone on trail is apparently unlawful, lol. TBH, I don't even like Hele, at all, but I also don't like when people ask for someone to lose everything they worked for because they made some joking insults to a friend and called a transgender by there actual name. 

      I never understood the argument "You don't agree with me so you're wrong and stupid", but it was solid in first grade. 



      However I'm changing my vote to Support Support - because I was never given the link to this discord and I could have added so much more fule to this fire. I'm frankly insulted I wasn't invited as a VIP member. 

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    • Helel ben Shahaar wrote: And as much as this may be in bad taste, I Oppose Oppose -

      Dang. I didn't realize Helel had bad taste, so I didn't put him in the list thing. Now (assuming Zarinaaa/Raven-danger-navy chose Support and McRiley chose Neutral), the figures are 12 Support, 2 Neutral, 26 Oppose.

      Also, kudos to the people who didn't listen to me. I hadn't even thought of the people taking a break from the site.

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    • ArcOfRuin
      ArcOfRuin removed this reply because:
      Would not like to stay up
      17:40, August 7, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Honest;y, I'm really curious about how reply's are being removed in this thread with so many unrealyed things staying, lol. 

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    • Resdraon wrote: Honestly, I'm really curious about how replies are being removed in this thread with so many unrelated things staying, lol.

      I think people might be removing their own comments. I know I was.

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    • Resdraon wrote:

      However I'm changing my vote to Support Support -

      Just to be 100% clear Res, is this an earnest change to your vote or just an off-hand joke? It's important we know for sure. 

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    • Squidmanescape wrote:

      Resdraon wrote: Honestly, I'm really curious about how replies are being removed in this thread with so many unrelated things staying, lol.

      I think people might be removing their own comments. I know I was.

      Correct. I have gone through and removed a fair amount of off-topic replies. I'm on mobile though and definitely missed a bunch.

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    • ChristianWallis wrote:

      Resdraon wrote:

      However I'm changing my vote to Support Support -

      Just to be 100% clear Res, is this an earnest change to your vote or just an off-hand joke? It's important we know for sure. 

      Even if this is an honest change, this Support does not count. As per the rules, any Support vote needs a proper reason. "because I was never given the link to this discord and I could have added so much more fule to this fire. I'm frankly insulted I wasn't invited as a VIP member" is not a valid reason.

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    • ANNOUNCEMENT

      We just changed the rules a bit to add more clarity. Previously it was implied that only Support votes need a valid reason. Now we made it clear that all votes need a valid reason behind them.

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    • Jarebare16
      Jarebare16 removed this reply because:
      I've noticed that the decision was reached, and I just added a useless post
      21:06, August 7, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • SEE POST UNDERNEATH FOR ACTUAL FIGURES

      MrDupin wrote: ANNOUNCEMENT

      We just changed the rules a bit to add more clarity. Previously it was implied that only Support votes need a valid reason. Now we made it clear that all votes need a valid reason behind them.

      7 Support, 25 Oppose (using that rule, assuming Resdraon isn't joking)
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    • Squidmanescape wrote:

      MrDupin wrote: ANNOUNCEMENT

      We just changed the rules a bit to add more clarity. Previously it was implied that only Support votes need a valid reason. Now we made it clear that all votes need a valid reason behind them.

      7 Support, 25 Oppose (using that rule, assuming Resdraon isn't joking)

      I actually have it as 5 support and 22 oppose after going through the thread and eliminating votes without reasoning or without a valid reason.

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    • I think Llanunall is probably right.

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    • Lokintas wrote:
      Hello everyone,

      I’m here today to propose the demotion of one of the admins of our community, Helel, for many different reasons, including misbehaving, immaturity, harassment and discrimination against users related to this wiki.

      Before stating the arguments, I would like to inform everyone that I’m not a troll or a hate account to attack Helel; I’ve been active or checking out this website for four years; I was best known as ScrewYouDinkleberg and I did plenty of volunteering here as a rollbacker and as the now defunct VCROC. Furthermore, this is not a thread to “demonize” Helel as a person, but rather as an admin who holds an important position in the community and who is inappropriately playing his role as an admin. And before voting, I suggest you that you read rule 6 of the Demotion Policy to be greatly aware of it.

      With all of that in mind, here are the arguments.

      • There are many evidences that Helel harasses users on this site, from newcomers to respected people of our community. You can see in this picture that a new user comes to the site and simply gives his opinion on a story. Helel is clearly trashing the new user just for the innocent comment they made, which is valid criticism and such mockery was far from appropriate.

      In this picture, you can see a certainly young user who does a pretty silly comment. The admin then takes advantage of her naiveness to mock her as an attempt to make her feel unwelcome, instead of educating her to not make such a big deal out of character’s gender or simply ignoring it. He then involuntarily causes a circle jerk with user users to harass the original commenter, and as the final attempt of jerkiness, Helel responds in a mean and sarcastic tone to Cleric who told the people involved to keep things civil. This shows how Helel’s behaviour contributes for our site to have a negative light online, making new users potentially turned off to contribute and possibly find future volunteers.

      • Helel does not only harass young or new users, but he also can harass respected members of our community. In Humbolt’s latest blog, at first, Helel downgrades the work of one of our best writers on the site by mocking him, calling him a “pack member”, undervaluing Matthew’s clever references in his story of good writers by calling them imprecise like a “headless Coyote” running on his book pages. After Matthew calling out Helel’s bullying, our admin proceeds to devalue him again, calling him an “underdoge.” This is clear evidence of Helel’s arrogance for making himself superior to one of our respected writers just because, and also naiveness because the fact he probably thinks that it’s okay to mock people that way as an admin on a website for everyone to see and get away with it is absurd. That shows that he’s too childish to play the role of an admin on our website.

      • It’s also notable that Helel misunderstands genuine concerns and criticism with hate. In this page, which I like to call it his Hate Wall, was based on Empy’s Salt Mines. However, Helel partially misses the point of Empy’s original concept, which is to put together real hate and troll comments, to instead put these kinds of comments, together with actual concerns and criticism. For example, one of the messages is of a confused user who is simply asking why his story was deleted and he doesn’t understand why. Instead of Helel explaining the reason to him, he simply puts the message on that wall, as if it was an attack, and eh mocks the user. Another example is of a user simply commenting on what he thinks of our warning system. Helel unnecessarily put that on his hate page just because of an inoffensive complaint, and he once again accuses the user of bad behaviour. These messages show how unwelcoming Helel can be to new users who come to this site.

      • And on top of that, after an event that nobody saw it coming on a chat server, I was ignored by Helel after I complained on his talk page, confused of what happened. Then, he erased my message from his main talk page, which is against the rules, and I got put on his hate wall; And there, he called me Jimmy. That may not sound a big deal stand alone, but to put that into context, I’m a transgender woman, and James is my dead name. He’s fully aware of my correct name and gender, as I told him along with many others several times what and who I am. Even after my persistence, he kept misgendering me as seen here. His stubbornness is a clear act of transphobia, and he uses this verbal violence to discriminate and devalue my existence even more than the usual. This behaviour shouldn’t be acceptable in a community that supposedly should welcome and not harass people of all types who come to a singular interest. This behaviour can possibly make users see the website in a negative light, by seeing a presence of a bigot in an important role as an admin.

      • Helel also has shown to have flawed communication skills regarding important decisions, such as deleting ChaoZ’s blog without the consent of other admins and crats. That blog shows really important information regarding the upcoming Creepypasta Convention in 2020. It exposes the shady things done by the people behind the convention, which are good to be aware of for those who wish to attend. Helel at first deleted the blog without anyone’s consent, censoring important information regarding the event, and even threatening Chao to be careful with what he exposes, although Chao did nothing wrong.

      • And finally, Helel has proven himself to be hostile against other writers who don’t agree with us. Not too long ago, Helel sent a link on a chat server to a YouTube video of Slimebeast exposing audio of one of our admins. He then tells people to leave comments in that video (likely bad ones, as his personality wouldn’t tell people to send positive ones) to erase Banning’s name in a “blacklist,” and he clearly emphasizes that the problem of the video is not the leaked footage, but Slimebeast. This shows how immature and vile Helel is towards people who disagree with us and are genuinely scared of what they could experience, although I myself doubt that Banning would attack someone in real life outside a warzone.

      In conclusion, it’s evident that it’s evident that Helel's actions on this wiki have shown that he is not ready to be an admin given his condescending and at times acerbic interactions with users, misunderstanding of criticism for aggression, and his handling of off-site matters like the Creepypasta convention video. He seems unaware that his actions and comments can hurt people and can ruin his image, and since he’s an admin, they can hurt the community as well, since he supposedly represents us. Helel has proven himself that he is too emotionally and mentally immature to handle admin rights for our community. Future potentially good contributors to our site can be turned off by his behaviour, and his behaviour hurts the site overall. Although he is one of the most active admins nowadays and he does the basic job of an admin to delete stories, warn and block users, he can’t properly handle other sides of being an admin. Demoting him would leave the website with one less admin, however, I personally find it better to have one less admin than keeping one hostile admin in the team.

      Thank you.

      Support Support -
      {{Support}}
      Neutral Neutral -
      {{Neutral}}
      Oppose Oppose -
      {{Oppose}}

      Neutral Neutral -



      Neutral Response-1
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    • Neutral Neutral -

      I am bad at decisions so I am gonna stay nuetral

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    • Neutral Neutral -

      I frankly don't know enough about Helel to make the proper judgment, but from what I've observed he at least gets shit done. I have seen some questionable and borderline immature comments from him, but nothing so bad that it would warrant a demotion. I'm not going to comment on the discord drama. If I were Helel, I would refrain from further conducting official wiki business on the unofficial wiki discord. It looks like it's shaping up to be CPWC 2.0 and that's bad, bad juju.

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    • No one is required to vote. If you have no reason to vote, please don't bother, because it won't be counted.

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    • I thought it was obvious I was joking. Than again, people not understanding the obvious is why we are here in the first place



      OHhh, burnnnn

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    • Resdraon wrote: I thought it was obvious I was joking. Than again, people not understanding the obvious is why we are here in the first place



      OHhh, burnnnn

      Ehehe.

      Also, is Zarinaaa support or oppose?

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    • It seems like they just want nothing to do with it, so Neutral?

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