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  • Helel ben Shahaar
    Helel ben Shahaar closed this thread because:
    This discussion was over before it even began.
    09:54, December 26, 2018

    ...why the story, Hangin' With Leo VHS Transcript, doesn't qualify as fan fiction? And if it does, why is it allowed to remain on the site?  I'm asking for the sake of knowing how to interpret site rules with consistency.

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    • I really wouldn't classify it as fan-fiction just because it references a celebrity/person of note. Fan-fiction is more reflective of inserting a character into a story where the main focus is on the character (_____ as a soldier in a D-Day story, _______ fighting zombies in the post-apocalypse, etc.) and spinoffs are more geared towards the use of another person's intellectual property (a story set in the world of Dark Souls, Fallout, Magic the Gathering, Middle Earth, etc. that may/may not references known characters, but still relies heavily on the groundwork laid by another source).

      Given that the focus of the plot is on the protagonist's obsession with the celebrity (similar to Selena Quintanilla) in a way that could be used almost interchangeably with another celebrity, actor, athlete, etc. I really don't see it as fan fiction. I can bring it up with another admin, but given that the story was marked for review for a good couple of weeks, chances are they've had an opportunity to gloss it over and if they felt it was in violation of the site rules, they would have likely removed it.

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    • That does make sense in theory, but I think this story straddles the line, don't you?

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    • Jdeschene, I agree with you. I am VERY surprised they let it stay. Too close to fanfiction and too low quality. Not enough to be worth an argument with the fandom brass by any stretch of the imagination.

      Dr. Bob

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    • Yeah, this story is obviously below standards.

      Understandably staff wants to keep standards low as not to discourage younger and newer writers, but you gotta draw the line at some point.

      On a related note, this one is just another "scary tapes" pasta, but for some reason can stay (it is only a week old, so age cannot be an excuse).

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    • NedWolfkin wrote:
      Yeah, this story is obviously below standards.

      Understandably staff wants to keep standards low as not to discourage younger and newer writers, but you gotta draw the line at some point.

      On a related note, this one is just another "scary tapes" pasta, but for some reason can stay (it is only a week old, so age cannot be an excuse).

      This makes me concerned that the admins are dropping the ball.

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    • Jdeschene wrote:

      This makes me concerned that the admins are dropping the ball.

      I've been concerned about it for a while.

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    • It's not even close to being fan fiction as the term is commonly understood.

      Let me ask you guys something: if the celebrity being stalked in that story was a fictional celebrity rather than LDC, would your reaction be the same?

      Just because a story is centered on a real life thing or person doesn't make it fan fiction. And I honestly am not seeing what you guys are seeing to say it's blatantly below QS. It's highly original, has a creepy theme, and doesn't violate any of the blacklists.

      As for the other one with the "scary tapes", eh, TBH I was a little surprised the admins let that one stay, but I've certainly seen a lot worse.

      You guys are becoming a little obsessive over "holding the line" against bad stories being posted on this wiki. I've been seeing stories marked for review or even deletion for having somewhat shaky plot points, suggestions that we add things to the spinpasta blacklist just because it doesn't cover every type of story that could turn out bad, users aggressively pushing the use of Writer's Workshop in a way that practically implies it's required when it's not, and in general a seeming preoccupation with a sudden notion that the wiki is in imminent danger of deteriorating if we let one too many weak stories slide.

      Remember this story that I marked for deletion the other month? It was saved in the end because some people saw something in it that I did not. Here's what Christian Wallis said in the end:

      "I took the deletion template off this story because it's literate, and original, and that's the lowest bar there is for our QS. As it stands, I don't get it. Some people do, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt."

      Literate and original. The "hangin with Leo" story more than clears that bar in my opinion.

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    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      It's not even close to being fan fiction as the term is commonly understood.

      Let me ask you guys something: if the celebrity being stalked in that story was a fictional celebrity rather than LDC, would your reaction be the same?

      Just because a story is centered on a real life thing or person doesn't make it fan fiction. And I honestly am not seeing what you guys are seeing to say it's blatantly below QS. It's highly original, has a creepy theme, and doesn't violate any of the blacklists.

      As for the other one with the "scary tapes", eh, TBH I was a little surprised the admins let that one stay, but I've certainly seen a lot worse.

      You guys are becoming a little obsessive over "holding the line" against bad stories being posted on this wiki. I've been seeing stories marked for review or even deletion for having somewhat shaky plot points, suggestions that we add things to the spinpasta blacklist just because it doesn't cover every type of story that could turn out bad, users aggressively pushing the use of Writer's Workshop in a way that practically implies it's required when it's not, and in general a seeming preoccupation with a sudden notion that the wiki is in imminent danger of deteriorating if we let one too many weak stories slide.

      Remember this story that I marked for deletion the other month? It was saved in the end because some people saw something in it that I did not. Here's what Christian Wallis said in the end:

      "I took the deletion template off this story because it's literate, and original, and that's the lowest bar there is for our QS. As it stands, I don't get it. Some people do, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt."

      Literate and original. The "hangin with Leo" story more than clears that bar in my opinion.

      I don't know what point you're trying to prove by offering the "fictional celebrity" strawman.  That would be entirely different and would not be fan fiction.  Other stories have been deleted on the basis of being fan fiction for centering around real celebrities far less than Hangin'.  I don't think you can sell this as being not fan fiction no matter how you spin it.  It smacks of double standard, honestly.

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    • I'd have to see those specific stories to respond to that point. To my memory there haven't been any stories deleted as "fan fiction" for being about real celebrities.

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    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      It's not even close to being fan fiction as the term is commonly understood.

      Let me ask you guys something: if the celebrity being stalked in that story was a fictional celebrity rather than LDC, would your reaction be the same?

      The fact that this is something that didn't really happen to him ruins it. You can make a story about a fictional celebrity and make it scary.

      Stephen King's Misery is about a fictional writer (despite being an author avatar), and it's pretty good in the way of horror.

      The story really isn't scary no matter who it is about, fictional or otherwise. It is hard to take a work seriously about someone who is real, as it is obvious that it never happened. I mean, there can be plausible stories about a historical figure because it could be a buried past sort of thing, but since this is a modern celebrity who has almost never been out of the public eye, the story loses credibility. I agree with Jdeschene when she said you cannot say that this is not a fanfic because it totally is.

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'd have to see those specific stories to respond to that point. To my memory there haven't been any stories deleted as "fan fiction" for being about real celebrities.

      Just because a story hasn't been done before doesn't mean it is any good (though I am pretty sure celebrity-fic has been done before). Having something original isn't worth jeopardizing the already sinking quality standards.

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      You guys are becoming a little obsessive over "holding the line" against bad stories being posted on this wiki.

      We have every right to be like that, we want quality stories. Quality standards is what seperates us from other Creepypasta sites that allow badly written Jeff-OCs.

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      users aggressively pushing the use of Writer's Workshop in a way that practically implies it's required when it's not

      There's a good chance that a first time writer isn't going to write a quality story, we're saving them the frustration of having their work deleted. It isn't aggressive, it is necessary. Most new users don't even know there is a writer's workshop.

      Like I said, it's understandable that staff wants to keep quality to a level where newer and younger writers won't be discouraged, but at you have to draw the line at some point.

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    • NedWolfkin wrote:
      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      It's not even close to being fan fiction as the term is commonly understood.

      Let me ask you guys something: if the celebrity being stalked in that story was a fictional celebrity rather than LDC, would your reaction be the same?

      Yes and no.

      Yes = The fact that this is something that didn't really happen to him ruins it. You can make a story about a fictional celebrity and make it scary.

      Stephen King's Misery is about a fictional writer (despite being an author avatar), and it's pretty good in the way of horror.

      No = The story really isn't scary no matter who it is about, fictional or otherwise. It is hard to take a work seriously about someone who is real, as it is obvious that it never happened. I mean, there can be plausible stories about a historical figure because it could be a buried past sort of thing, but since this is a modern celebrity who has almost never been out of the public eye, the story loses credibility. I agree with Jdeschene when she said you cannot say that this is not a fanfic because it totally is.


      HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I'd have to see those specific stories to respond to that point. To my memory there haven't been any stories deleted as "fan fiction" for being about real celebrities.
      Just because a story hasn't been done before doesn't mean it is any good (though I am pretty sure celebrity-fic has been done before). Having something original isn't worth the already sinking jeopardizing quality standards.


      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      You guys are becoming a little obsessive over "holding the line" against bad stories being posted on this wiki.

      We have every right to be like that, we want quality stories. Quality standards is what seperates us from other Creepypasta sites that allow badly written Jeff-OCs.


      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      users aggressively pushing the use of Writer's Workshop in a way that practically implies it's required when it's not

      There's a good chance that a first time writer isn't going to write a quality story, we're saving them the frustration of having their work deleted. It isn't aggressive, it is necessary. Most new users don't even know there is a writer's workshop.

      Like I said, it's understandable that staff wants to keep quality to a level where newer and younger writers won't be discouraged, but at you have to draw the line at some point.

      I agree completely with Ned.  Well said.

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    • Thank you, J.

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    • I looked up various definitions of fan fiction and discovered the thing called "real person/celebrity fiction" which, depending on who you ask, can be considered a subgenre of fan fiction.

      I still personally doubt that the admins who wrote the fan fiction rule had that specifically in mind, but since the rule does say "no fan fiction of any kind", I suppose I stand corrected in my certainty that it can't be considered subject to scrutiny as fan fiction.

      That said, even with my new awareness of this obscure fan fiction genre, I still think it can be argued that the story in question does not apply. My impression of real people fiction as it relates to fan fiction is that the thing that makes it fan fiction is that the authors themselves are obsessed or fantasizing about a certain public figure, whereas in this case it's the narrator who is obsessed. I really doubt the story is the author's personal fantasy about LDC.

      Furthermore, credibility and suspension of disbelief don't come first and foremost when it comes to deciding if a story meets QS. The first things that are judged are grammar, basic coherency and structure, and a general ability to form and finish a plot. Everything else such as whether the story is believable or gripping is quite secondary. "I don't buy the plot of this" isn't really a consideration for if it meets QS.

      Just because a story hasn't been done before doesn't mean it is any good (though I am pretty sure celebrity-fic has been done before). Having something original isn't worth the already sinking jeopardizing quality standards.


      We have every right to be like that, we want quality stories. Quality standards is what seperates us from other Creepypasta sites that allow badly written Jeff-OCs.

      I'm glad the current crop of active users values quality control, but you guys have been on the wiki for an average of six months apiece. The admins have been doing this for years, and Empy in particular was basically responsible for creating the current quality standards as we know them. So, frankly, if you and the admins are in consistent disagreement over what does and does not meet QS, it's probably not the admins who are wrong.

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    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      I'm glad the current crop of active users values quality control, but you guys have been on the wiki for an average of six months apiece.

      I've been a visitor since 2012, just because our accounts are new doesn't mean we're new to this site.

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      So, frankly, if you and the admins are in consistent disagreement over what does and does not meet QS, it's probably not the admins who are wrong.

      Just because they're admins doesn't mean they're above making judgemental errors.

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    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:
      I looked up various definitions of fan fiction and discovered the thing called "real person/celebrity fiction" which, depending on who you ask, can be considered a subgenre of fan fiction.

      I still personally doubt that the admins who wrote the fan fiction rule had that specifically in mind, but since the rule does say "no fan fiction of any kind", I suppose I stand corrected in my certainty that it can't be considered subject to scrutiny as fan fiction.

      That said, even with my new awareness of this obscure fan fiction genre, I still think it can be argued that the story in question does not apply. My impression of real people fiction as it relates to fan fiction is that the thing that makes it fan fiction is that the authors themselves are obsessed or fantasizing about a certain public figure, whereas in this case it's the narrator who is obsessed. I really doubt the story is the author's personal fantasy about LDC.

      Furthermore, credibility and suspension of disbelief don't come first and foremost when it comes to deciding if a story meets QS. The first things that are judged are grammar, basic coherency and structure, and a general ability to form and finish a plot. Everything else such as whether the story is believable or gripping is quite secondary. "I don't buy the plot of this" isn't really a consideration for if it meets QS.


      Just because a story hasn't been done before doesn't mean it is any good (though I am pretty sure celebrity-fic has been done before). Having something original isn't worth the already sinking jeopardizing quality standards.


      We have every right to be like that, we want quality stories. Quality standards is what seperates us from other Creepypasta sites that allow badly written Jeff-OCs.
      I'm glad the current crop of active users values quality control, but you guys have been on the wiki for an average of six months apiece. The admins have been doing this for years, and Empy in particular was basically responsible for creating the current quality standards as we know them. So, frankly, if you and the admins are in consistent disagreement over what does and does not meet QS, it's probably not the admins who are wrong.

      So admins can never be wrong?  If you're really sticking to that point of view, then it sounds like it's time to demote and replace at least one of them.

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    • HopelessNightOwl wrote:
       


      I'm glad the current crop of active users values quality control, but you guys have been on the wiki for an average of six months apiece. The admins have been doing this for years, and Empy in particular was basically responsible for creating the current quality standards as we know them. So, frankly, if you and the admins are in consistent disagreement over what does and does not meet QS, it's probably not the admins who are wrong.

      Also, the fact that we've noticed a sharp decline in story quality and a rise in administrative inconsistency in the relatively short time we've been on this wiki should really be alarming enough to get past your pride.

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    • Jdeschene wrote:

      So admins can never be wrong?  If you're really sticking to that point of view, then it sounds like it's time to demote and replace at least one of them.

      Just one word:

      Agree!

      Jdeschene wrote:

      Also, the fact that we've noticed a sharp decline in story quality and a rise in administrative inconsistency in the relatively short time we've been on this wiki should really be alarming enough to get past your pride.

      That's putting it bluntly.

      Even if this story didn't count as a fanfiction, it is still lacking in quality. Even you, Owl, admitted that the "SCARY TAPEZ!" pasta I linked to is horrible and raises questions as to why it was allowed to stay. That story alone is proof of what we're saying about quality standards.

      EmpyrealInvective wrote:
      the story was marked for review for a good couple of weeks, chances are they've had an opportunity to gloss it over and if they felt it was in violation of the site rules, they would have likely removed it.

      I find that unlikely. M4R articles are pretty much ignored. If another admin had seen it and deemed it worthy to stay they would have removed the M4R tag.

      HopelessNightOwl wrote:

      The admins have been doing this for years, and Empy in particular was basically responsible for creating the current quality standards as we know them.

      Which inadvertently proves our point about inconsistency.

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