First off, thanks for offering to help; we really appreciate it. Although I would hate to see you disqualified, we may end up going that route so it gets done. I'll talk to the others and get back to you ASAP. I think you'd make a great judge, but I really want to try and figure out a way to keep your story in the contest. I see Ruckus made an edit a few hours ago, so I messaged him again. We'll see what happens. Thanks again for volunteering.
- Update: Dupin has volunteered to judge so you're not disqualified. If Ruckus doesn't speak up in the next couple days, we'll likely be handing it over to Dupin. Again, we really appreciate your willingness to help out, and would certainly have let you if it weren't for your being disqualified in the process. You obviously spent a lot of time on that story, so any option that allows it to stay in the running has to be our first choice. Thanks again.
- Update Two: Ruckus messaged me and said he'll be wrapping the judging up in the next few days. Thanks again for offering to help and good luck in the contest.
RE: Night Man
I don't know how "Say" to "Σay" happened. I probably switched to Greek accidentally. It is fixed now. About the NSFW tag, there were only a handful of occassions where you described something NSFW, and even that had little NSFW description, so I think it should not be tagged as such. If you want, you can re-add the category. I'm OK either way.
I just felt the urge to congratulate you personally on your second place win in Ruckus's contest. Great Job! I was actually expecting it to win!
Was that last message on your talk page harassment?
I feel like I need some constructive criticism, and was wondering if I could get your time of day for a few stories. I would like to have someone who looks at a pasta with a critical eye and you seem to fit the bill. So if you wouldn't mind checking out some of my stories that would be great.
I know I have written some shit bombs, so to avoid the hassle of hearing how something is a trope or whatnot, I will give you the ones I would like a review on. To the Moon, Voice Messages, Withdrawals and Spirit Bottles.
One of those stories are about the occult. I hope I don't offend you in any way, I read you were a Satanist I believe. Most of the stories I write have some message to them, and I have studied religions of all kinds, including Satanism, Wicca and Paganism in general, for most of my life. So please believe me I mean no disrespect to any religion.
I am actually an atheist, who doesn't believe in any form of supernatural events. I'll give your stories a look when I can, which may be over the course of the next few days. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 03:17, September 21, 2015 (UTC)
Just checking in to see if you had a chance to look at any of those stories I asked you to look at?
You can go ahead and nominate a story if you like. Here's the page - Nominations
- You should add your own signature and not the author's. As it stands, it looks like he self-nominated his story. EmpyrealInvective (talk) 00:30, September 25, 2015 (UTC)
Thank you so much for the Nom.
I'll check it out
I'll be sure to check it out tonight or tomorrow and let you know. I've heard good things about it though.
A little Feedback
I was wondering if you could take a look at a story I have written for the contest. It is in WW and titled Bedtime for my Daughter. If you could give me a little feed back that would be splendid.
I'll give it a glance tonight and leave you some feedback.
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you, but I work two jobs and time is not always in my favor. I will love to read you story and will be able to do so on Saturday or Sunday.
Hey buddy, I was wondering if you could look at a story of mine. It still needs some polishing, but I'm really struggling with the creep factor. Any input would be awesome. http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:502786#3
Re: Wolf Men
Hey, I noticed Mr.Creepypasta narrated one of your pastas. Congrats, man!
Frankenstein with Boris Karloff, Dwight Frye and Colin Clive is one of my favorite horror movies.
I'll take a look at it and leave you some feedback this week.
- Also, I noticed that in a lot of your stories you sign with ShawnHowellsCP instead of your current username. Is that intended, or should I go ahead and update them? Or you don't care? MrDupin (talk) 10:41, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
No problem. It might take a day or two but I'll give it a read.
Creepypasta Costume Contest
Thanks for participating in the Creepypasta Costume Contest (2015). Here is a link where you can view the costumes. Thanks for entering and putting time into your costume. EmpyrealInvective (talk) 04:08, November 10, 2015 (UTC)
I'll check it out and leave some feedback over tomorrow or the next day.
Yeah, I can do that.
23:01, November 13, 2015 (UTC)
Hello! Can we talk a little?
I feel like talking to you :3
Hey buddy, I just heard a narration of Enlightenment of a War Machine and was blown away. Exceptional! This is the type of literature that grabs you by the face and slaps you around. It's more of an experience than just reading a story. You tell the stories I try to tell, just not as sophisticated and eloquent as you can obtain. I'm finding my path of storytelling is more along the lines of infusing humor to relay my plots. Anyways, I would be extremely flattered if you would read my very first story. It's my story that was over three decades in the making. I still remember me as a kid, sitting in church, trying reconcile my difficulty accepting how could there be an all powerful God with no beginning or end (unsuccessfully I might add). That was the seed for The Sounding of the Fifth Trumpet. Reading your style more and more, it would mean a lot to me to hear your opinion of this story. The artwork is mine as well. Thanks for your timeKillaHawke1 (talk) 05:06, November 19, 2015 (UTC)
Hello! I Just Wanted To Say Hello! That's All! So If You Can Leave Me A Message And We Can Talk A Little, bye! --LiamGaming
Don't sweat it
Thank you very much for your review of The Sounding of the Fifth Trumpet. I am really proud of that piece, especially it being my very first story. I am in total agreement about ritual/instructional based stories. I really liked them at first, but the formula gets repetitive and uninteresting very fast. That is what gave me the idea of the voice of the narrator having a more character and emotional connection with my protagonist. With its personal agenda and identity revealed, I think I pulled off a unique twist ending that seemed to work very well. KillaHawke1 (talk) 23:34, December 3, 2015 (UTC)
Jingle hell rot
Jingle hell rot
Your story The Cold Testament took third place in my Holiday Horror Contest. Contact me on my talk page for your prize, reviews for up to three of your stories of your choice.
Got your message! Schedule permitting, I'm hoping to complete your reviews by about Jan 1st. Happy holidays!
Re: Asking something of you
Hello! Well, I have to admit I'm intrigued! Please let me know what you're thinking and I'll let you know. Incidentally, in case you haven't seen my new post, I noted, "On numerous occasions I've depicted my characters... slashed with rivers of blood flowing from the wounds, but if I depicted guts, it might not look realistic enough." Keep that in mind if you were thinking of something gory. Raidra (talk) 18:59, January 8, 2016 (UTC)
- I think I can handle that. Just give me a couple days and I should have something for you. Raidra (talk) 00:35, January 9, 2016 (UTC)
Okay, here's what I came up with! The color on Enki didn't show up too well (I colored the rays of light a fluorescent yellow orange and his skin a lighter version of the same), but I think it still turned out looking radiant. I tried to have smudges around Dread and it turned out looking like a dark aura. If that's not okay I can try to color over it. Mendes appears to be missing parts of two fingers, but that's because he's making a gesture in which two fingers are straight and two are bent. If you approve, then I can cut them into three sections so you can post them individually (if that's what you want). To paraphrase John Lennon, I hope I passed the audition. Raidra (talk) 15:00, January 9, 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, shoot, I forgot to post the picture! Here it is! Raidra (talk) 15:01, January 9, 2016 (UTC)
- You're certainly welcome. I'm glad I could help. :-D Raidra (talk) 19:21, January 9, 2016 (UTC)
Re: In Torment 4- First Three Chapters
I'll get around to it soon, your stories are a joy to read.
10:58, January 17, 2016 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I might not have the time to read them on the Workshop. Exams are approaching fast and I still have Banning's story to read. In the Workshop you will need feedback quickly, and I'm not sure I can provide it. If nobody gives you feedback though, I will gladly step in to give you some. And of course, when you finish the story, I'll read and review it.
I'll be more than happy to
Flattered to know that my work as been an influence. You are a very talented writer, so it means a lot to hear that something I created has assisted you. I will look over your work, I promise, but sadly my time is very limited at the moment. I'm sure you've noticed my lack of presence on the site lately. I recently took on a new job that is wearing me out and leaving me with almost no free time. Yep, I hate it, but it pays well so I am really torn on whether I should quit in favor of my mental health or stick it out in order to play the role of proper husband and father. However, I will set aside some time to review your stories, just please be patient.
Also, I would love it if you would leave some feedback on some of my works as well. I recall you left one of the most brillaint and detailed reviews on my first Tobit story, and would really appreciate some of that on my others. My last Tobit entry has very few remarks, and your input would be greatly appreciated.
Contest winner reviews
Just wanted to update you, I haven't forgotten these and they're still on my to do list. Life has been somewhat hectic as of late but I'm intending on getting to them in the next week or two. Apologize for the delay! Shadowswimmer77 (talk) 01:35, January 26, 2016 (UTC)
Hey man, it's no problem. It was getting bothersome for me as well because I kept having to roll back everything he was doing.
Have a good one.
Hakuna matata, what a wonderful phrase and it's no passing craze. (talk) 17:50, February 17, 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the review! I rewrote the ending and completely removed the soldiers. I'm more satisfied with this version of the story. If you are interested, would you mind telling me your thoughts http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:525756 ? Thanks again :D Buckle up! I'm going to be popular 22:05, February 17, 2016 (UTC)
I will try to get around to it sometime this week. Unfortunately, I just finished up with a number of more in-depth review requests so I have a bit of fatigue going on. As it's a longer story, I'll try to look it over during the weekend when I have more time to devote. EmpyrealInvective (talk) 10:11, March 9, 2016 (UTC)
- I will give it a read, but I'm afraid it will take a long while. I have some other stories I want to get around to reviewing, and they are all pretty long. But I'll get to it eventually, don't worry. MrDupin (talk) 14:37, March 9, 2016 (UTC)
Re: In Torment 4
Re: In Torment 4
Thanks for the heads up. I'll be reading that soon.
09:27, March 10, 2016 (UTC)
Re Review Request
Hey bro, I'm a rollback... does that count as a member of staff? Well I guess a more chilled, less scary version of an admin, lol.
Sure I'll check it out. But it's very long so might take me until the end of the week because exams and coursework shit but I'll get to it, don't worry. I know it's frustrating when people answer your request without actually reading the story but I just wanted to acknowledge I read your message (haven't been on for a while).
In Torment 4
I'm not going to be able to read your story soon, so I thought I'd send a message, but your stories are fantastic.
ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 06:21, March 19, 2016 (UTC)05:55, March 19, 2016 (UTC) It's fine, there's no rush at all. Thanks for telling me though. Also, thank you for the kind words at the end.
Why do some people need to push their beliefs onto others man? It isn't like we wouldn't be accepting of who they are or what they believe, but to try and force that shit onto others isn't cool man. Thanks for backing me up and helping me prove a point.
Agreed. No issue at all. Apparently statistics are false if they don't match a person's world view to the key. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 04:03, March 26, 2016 (UTC)
I've never seen a gay person get so Butt Hurt before.
Just a thing to say...
I haven't updated my creepypasta for a loooooong time because my old (5-year-old vista) computer had problems in which made me only start it in Safe Mode. So I just got my new computer now, so I can continue it.
However, I'll do another strategy about it. Settle the plot before actually write.
Good choice. That is how writing should always be handled. I'll be sure to check out the story when it releases. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 00:10, April 14, 2016 (UTC)
You really aren't allowed to have alt. accounts on this site. If you prefer to keep this account, message me back, otherwise I will be locking your other account as it can negatively impact site votes and other matters. EmpyrealInvective (talk) 20:36, April 18, 2016 (UTC)
You need to check your mail Shawn. I've got a surprise for you.04:28, April 20, 2016 (UTC)
Hey, in case you haven't seen this. Awesome story!!
Care checking the mailz? Got something eye-gouging stuff for ya.16:11, April 21, 2016 (UTC)
I have a review request for a recent story I just put up in the Writer's Workshop. If you can find the time, maybe you can give me some constructive criticism about it> E Cochran Rd---New Revision With Different Endings
The Truth of Fear
I "fear" you might like to see this. LOL
Hey Buddy,I got one more for you (Well, three in one). I hope you enjoy my interpretation of these three short stories. I felt as if each story was a monologue of an AI trinity. Each one with a different personality. All equally malicious. The three AIs are becoming more of an entity now than simply a technological conscience. I hope you enjoy it.
That you once again for an excellent narration. I love the idea of multiple personalities and voices for the readings, and felt it helped drive the point. This is an excellent narration that I'm proud exists. You did make a typo in the video name, however. It should be "Coexistence", not "Existence". Thank you once more. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 19:24, May 1, 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for calling that out, I fixed it. Feel free to reach out to me if you have a request or if there's a story you wish would be narrated, hit me anytime KillaHawke1 (talk) 20:58, May 1, 2016 (UTC)
The stories I'd request you read are typically very large and would certainly consume multiple episodes (as is obvious by their novella size), but since you seem to be into my more "philosophical" stories, 16 Psyche was my first attempt, and did shockingly well. Shattered Glass continues the tone and questioning aspects of the "Existence" trilogy of stories. Those two are the short and suitable ones I'd recommend overall, based on time consumption and your taste.
Fun fact- Coexistence is actually a remake of The Truth of Fear at heart and moral- both of which you narrated. Seeing as you seem to take interest in the stories for more than just their horror-upfront worth, you can feel free to ask whatever you'd like- from inspiration, to their morals, to their reasoning. Just making it clear that, seeing as you stated my stories help you improve as an author, you are able to know anything you want about them. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 04:58, May 3, 2016 (UTC)
Just wanna catch up. How's your story Mantle going? Have you begun writing it?
Hello, Ruckus. I've actually been remastering In Torment on its page before I start Mantle. You can see that the overall quality of the story is FAR superior to what it was on launch. I'm currently doing the last three chapters, which should only take a day or two. Once it is finished, I will do our little special announcement and begin production of Mantle. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 19:11, May 5, 2016 (UTC)
- That's fantastic! I wish you lots of luck. I'll check your revised stories later, as I'm far too stressed out to even type (I'm barely doing it right now).
- Yeah, I'm a mess. Been writing a new story of mine these last few weeks, and the research is causing me a lot of trouble. It's a historical pasta, actually, about JFK's assassination, only with a twist. It's so factually complex and confusing that it pains me a lot to write the story itself, but I'm liking my progress. I'm jus doing the ending and polish it later. Might get it done this week or two. Wish me luck too.
I'll be sure to check it out when I can. The premise seems promising. I, myself, have had a rather shit schedule for writing, being caught between therapy sessions, changes in life, hoards if school work, and so on. Best of luck. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 19:42, May 5, 2016 (UTC)
Hey Shawn! Can you please check your email? I've sent youbthe first draft of my newest story, and your help — if you could do it — would really help me a lot. Thanks.
Shattered GlassHey buddy, one more for you. I hope you enjoy. Also, check out my my Alien story.....it came out very good.
Hey quick question.
Is the anthology for In Torment, which I haven't read any of on here yet, going to be in publication order or chronilogical order? Thanks!
Chronological order, hence the subtext reading "From The Night Man to Mantle". The stories were released in this order- In Torment, In Torment in Hell, In Torment Excubia, In Torment III, The Night Man, Oceanic, In Torment 4, Mantle (upcoming). The chronological order is- The Night Man, Oceanic, In Torment Excubia, In Torment, In Torment in Hell, In Torment III, In Torment 4, Mantle. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 06:18, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I'm Dee Dust, and I wanted to ask for your permission to do a narration video on a few of your stories "Coexistence" and "The Truth of Fear" for my YouTube channel. I will give proper credit to you in the video and link back to the story. Thanks for your consideration! DeeDust (talk) 19:38, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
Hello, Dee Dust. By all means, feel free to narrate at will! Only condition being that you come back here and provide me with links to your narrations so I can enjoy them. Glad you took interest in my stories. Have fun! ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 19:57, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
- Well, I read them both along with two other short stories here: https://youtu.be/8B7CZ7Epsdw Thanks for letting me read them!
Good job on the narrations. Always nice to see a new channel starting up. I thoroughly enjoyed the narrations of both stories. I look forward to seeing how you channel grows in the future. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 16:35, June 2, 2016 (UTC)
Hey buddy how are you doing. I hope all is well. I was hoping you might be able to look at something for me in the next couple weeks. The Existence trilogy had stuck with me and led to me writing this little story...which questions the fourth state of existence— AFTER-EXISTENCE (if there is such a word). it deals with salvation, paradise, damnation, and death bed conversions...and it is deliciously blasphemous.
Speaking of the Existence trilogy. The three personalities I used to tell each story really interests me. Instead of an introspective look at ourselves, it could now be viewed as an evaluation by an outside entity. When it is said "we are the gods" now it meant them not man. There were other subtle things like that could be viewed differently and could be the beginnings of a new world. I thought I would mention that to you to keep in the back of you mind for future ideas.
By for I close, I have decided that i do one of your novella sized stories in chapters. I have a few of my stories I need to finish up, especially my follow up to "They Mostly Come At Night" that actually has the most views I have ever had and FELINE is coming along very well. take care KillaHawke1 (talk) 00:28, May 31, 2016 (UTC)
Hello, KillaHawke1. I have been very busy of late, but there is not much to complain about. I'd be glad to take a look at this story at any available moment. I am quite ecstatic that my stories motivated you to create a spiritual successor to the trilogy, and would like to take a look at it.
If it fits, I'd be willing to add it as an official successor and put it with the other three (obviously in its own category as it's written by someone other than myself- even though Non-Existence covers both before and after birth, which seems rather close to After-Existence) and pass the property to you to do with as you like as a sort of shared unit between the two of us. Think of it as a shared universe, except as it stands, it's more of a philosophy-esque collection.
As for narrating one of my novellas, this also makes me happy, though the discussion may be tough. The In Torment series is pretty necessary to read in a row, so the only one out of that series which would make sense to narrate would be The Night Man, as it starts the series off. Outside of that series, you have Tabula Rasa, and The Cold Testament is also decently sized.
Thank you for your interest. ShawnHowellsCP (talk) 03:59, May 31, 2016 (UTC)
Thank you very much to have permission to add to the Existence cannon. I don't think this story actually fits with the style, but you will immediately see how it is relateds. I just added the story to the Writers Workshop. Its called Can You Feel it Coming. I have also done its narration. It took me almost two weeks I think you'll enjoy it, it probably one best to date. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIvqYPgPxp4 KillaHawke1 (talk) 02:31, June 6, 2016 (UTC)
In Torment 4 Review
RE: Mantle Chapter 1
I'll take a look at it as soon as I can and leave you some feedback.
Dude, I am extremely flattered and would definitely be willing to participate. Thank you for thinking of me. As far as stories go, I am fine narrating most stories with the only restrictions I have are no overtly sexual content. KillaHawke1 (talk) 00:25, September 6, 2016 (UTC)
Hey, just to be clear on something, is the winner of the contest getting their story narrated? I think a lot of people would love that. I don't want to put much pressure on Killahawke, so I believe the winner and second place should get a narration (instead of just the runner-ups). That way Killahawke would get a place in the front page too, so more exposure for everyone. MrDupin (talk) 11:16, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. The winner should definitely be narrated. Maybe just have first and second place get narrated and something of a lesser prize for third? First place: front page + narration Second place: narration Third place: ?
- It just makes sense to me to set them apart a bit, but this isn't a requirement.
- Maybe we can stick with the original of giving a review to 2nd and 3rd place. So the prizes are like this:
- 1st: front page + narration, 2nd: narration + review, 3rd: review
- Dupin's idea sounds good. I would also clarify that the first place story gets narrated, not a story of the winner's choice. That way the narration ends up on the front page with the story. I suppose you could let second place still choose, if you wanted. Let me know what you decide. Once we get this all lined-out I'll add the staff blogs category to your blog which will put it at the top right of the front page.
Good morning, So far, all the ideas regarding narration work for me. Two videos are quite manageable, and three is doable too. I would request that as soon as the two stories are picked to get them to me so I can begin work. Of course, I will keep the stories and content to myself until the winners are revealed. Now did you want to announce the winners and then have the narration created? Or announce the winners with their reviews and narrations already completed?
One last suggestion, I think the narrations should probably be limited to using only the story that placed in the contest. That way, we know the story to be narrated is good, and I can begin working on them as soon as they are chosen. It also avoids winners from picking narrations that are too long, not very good, or with undesirable subject matters KillaHawke1 (talk) 13:27, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
- I'm assuming you will go with KillaHawk's suggestions since he's the one doing the narrations, so I'm going to make some adjustments to the blog that will reflect these changes, Shawn. I will also add the staff blogs category while doing so. Let me know if you take issue with any changes.
Hey Shawn, could you add links to the entries on the blog as they come? I think it would be nice to have them all in one place, so others could read them too. MrDupin (talk) 22:09, September 15, 2016 (UTC)
- Oh sorry, my bad. I thought we had till the end of September to post our scores (to get the story on the front page for October). I have only one more story to score. I haven't posted any of the reviews to post them all at once. Tonight I will have them up. MrDupin (talk) 17:44, September 25, 2016 (UTC)
Thank you so much for your review on my story and thanks for helping start up the contest in the first place. Your feedback was really appreciated and really motivates me to keep writing. Overall, it doesn't matter to me that I only got the silver instead of the gold, because the responses I got on the story were priceless. I guess since I placed second I get to have one of my stories reviewed by you and Christian. I don't know if you were going to choose them yourselves or how you were going to do it, but I'd prefer if you read one of my other recent stories: A Night of Crimson.
Similarly to Whispers in the Wind, I tried to experiment with an LGBT protagonist in this one, but I think I really improved in it in Whispers. I've been told the main character's personality is a bit cliche, but I think I tried a little harder to circumvent the cliches and make her more relatable, like what you were going for in your Anti-Cliche contest. You guys can take as much time as you need to review my stories because I know you're probably busy. And sorry if this message is a little soon after the contest, but I was just excited by the fact that I placed second. Again, thanks a lot, Shawn!
Thanks for the feedback
Hey Shawn, I really appreciate your feedback on my story. I knew it definitely wasn't my best because something just felt a little off about it. I think it was that I was trying to juggle so many cliches in an attempt to make the reveal of the monsters of the story a bit more impactful, but it didn't work out as well as I thought. But thanks again for giving it a read and taking time out of your day to host the original contest in the first place. Have a happy Halloween, dude! The Damn Batman (talk) 20:45, October 12, 2016 (UTC)
I have a story in the WW known as The Scary House, and I was wondering if you could check it out and leave some feedback
It's been a long time
Was wondering if you would be able to give me some feedback on the newest story I've published here. It's titled Jenna. It's more of a drama than a horror, but it has some dark spots in it. If you can that'll'd be appreciated.
I'll take you up on that, but I don't really want to put it somewhere that everyone would be able to see it. At the moment, I haven't really done any editing to it, besides cutting two people from the story with a quick ctrl F, so it's far from done. But the ending just kills the entire thing. Where would be the best place to send this rough, rough copy?
Thanks for giving me your email. I sent you over a rough draft of the story I've was talking about and if you can give me some feedback on it that would be great. Not sure if I want to keep it or not, but I do like that main concept.
What's up man
I sent you a copy of that story I mentioned and wasn't sure if you had gotten it or not. If not I can try to send it again, or if you did and just didn't have a chance to look it over that's cool. Sorry if I'm coming off as a little eager, not really my intention. But anyway, how've you been?
Coming a long way
Thanks for telling me, mate. It's been a long waiting, I'll start reading it right away.
No problem man, I enjoyed talking to you on TPW and I'll try to find some time in the near future to sit down and read Mantle in its entirety. Hope you're having a good one. EmpyrealInvective (talk) 13:40, March 11, 2017 (UTC)
Great job on finishing it all up. Trust me, I know better than most how hard it is to do a long series. There were times that I wanted to write other stuff, but I knew that the Tobit series had to be told all the way through. I am honored that you consider me one of you inspirations. It is very humbling to be able to play a role in helping a fellow writer complete their opus.
I'll be sure to check out Mantle and will leave some feedback. If there is every anything I can do for you, please feel free to reach out.
- Hey, congratulations from me too man. Well done. I will definitely give it a read once my schedule opens up a bit. I'm sure it will be great.
- By the way, I wanted to talk to you about something. Can you email me at firstname.lastname@example.org whenever you get the time? MrDupin (talk) 18:03, March 11, 2017 (UTC)
Hey man, maybe you shoot me an email? email@example.com. I have some pretty important stuff (at least to me) to say.